Kobe's career is ending so anticlimactically and its depressing.

[T_L_P]

No need to go back 20 years. Phil Jackson is on the payroll of a team right now. How are they doing?

Phil could have his team go 20-62 for the next 10 years and his Win% would still probably be higher than Pop's minus Duncan.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Without Phil Jackson and a dominant front line, Kobe is Detroit pistons jerry Stackhouse.

09-10 Lakers didn't even have the best front court in the their own conference so I don't see how this is relevant.

What's Kobe supposed to do win rings with his 2nd best player averaging 12/4/4?

All this talk about Pau Gasol who was the second option and averaged 18 & 10 in those 2 years with the Lakers being "too much help" meanwhile Kevin Love is currently putting up 17/10 as the third option of the Cavs and yet that team apparently still doesn't have enough.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Phil could have his team go 20-62 for the next 10 years and his Win% would still probably be higher than Pop's minus Duncan.

Duncan was a role player in 2011 averaged 13/8 yet the Spurs still finished with 60+ wins...

[Funnyfuka]

everything has to end one day.

[T_L_P]

Duncan was a role player in 2011 averaged 13/8 yet the Spurs still finished with 60+ wins...

1st in PER, 2nd in +/- and Net Rating, 2nd in Box Plus/Minus, 3rd in WS, 3nd in WS/48, 6th in league-wide RAPM.

Meanwhile Kobe was the 7th leading scorer on his team, 7th in PER, 10th in WS, 12th in WS/48, 12th in Box Plus/Minus, somewhere between 120-140 in league-wide xRAPM, and his team still finished with 56 wins.

Averaged 15/3 the next season and his team still finished with 61 wins.

[iggy>]

09-10 Lakers didn't even have the best front court in the their own conference so I don't see how this is relevant.

What's Kobe supposed to do win rings with his 2nd best player averaging 12/4/4?

All this talk about Pau Gasol who was the second option and averaged 18 & 10 in those 2 years with the Lakers being "too much help" meanwhile Kevin Love is currently putting up 17/10 as the third option of the Cavs and yet that team apparently still doesn't have enough.

There were plenty of good players on that Lakers team besides gasol. Also cavs don't have Phil Jackson.

[TheMarkMadsen]

1st in PER, 2nd in +/- and Net Rating, 2nd in Box Plus/Minus, 3rd in WS, 3nd in WS/48, 6th in league-wide RAPM.

Meanwhile Kobe was the 7th leading scorer on his team, 7th in PER, 10th in WS, 12th in WS/48, 12th in Box Plus/Minus, somewhere between 120-140 in league-wide xRAPM, and his team still finished with 56 wins.

Averaged 15/3 the next season and his team still finished with 61 wins.

whats your point?

My point stands, Pop clearly can lead teams without Duncan being "Duncan", he's been doing it for the past 7 years.

if you want to hold Kobe's rookie year against him then okay but that's not helping your point at all. Lakers were stacked with Shaq and two other all star guards, but Shaq wasn't able to get it done even with multiple all star guards until Kobe became elite.

meanwhile the last time Duncan won a FMVP was a decade ago, and since then the Spurs have still continued winning making 3 finals and winning 2

[TheMarkMadsen]

There were plenty of good players on that Lakers team besides gasol. Also cavs don't have Phil Jackson.

Lamar Odom and trevor ariza were the best players after Gasol in 09

next year was Odom and Metta..

[T_L_P]

whats your point?

My point stands, Pop clearly can lead teams without Duncan being "Duncan", he's been doing it for the past 7 years.

if you want to hold Kobe's rookie year against him then okay but that's not helping your point at all. Lakers were stacked with Shaq and two other all star guards, but Shaq wasn't able to get it done even with multiple all star guards until Kobe became elite.

meanwhile the last time Duncan won a FMVP was a decade ago, and since then the Spurs have still continued winning making 3 finals and winning 2

Who's to say he wasn't being 'Duncan' though? He was still very easily one of the highest impact defenders in the league, and all the other stats show he was at worst the 3rd best Spur (he was #2 behind Manu in reality).

Even if you exclude the 97 season, Pop is still only 55-50 without Duncan (and that's with Manu, Parker, Robinson, Bowen, Leonard, Green, etc...the greatest help in NBA history according to you Kobe fans).

And since Duncan has exited his prime (2008-present), Pop is 31-23 (again, a shitty record for an all-time great like Pop).

Kobe in 97-98 was clearly a role player though (he was slightly above one in 98, but he was clearly one if that's what 11 Duncan is)...barely a top 7 player on his team one year and clearly not higher than #4 the next....still able to win 56 and 61 games, and make it to the 2nd round and WCF...

When Duncan wasn't Duncan...yeah the Spurs won Regular Season games...but they lost in the 1st round, made it to the 2nd round, and lost in the 1st round again.

How did this shit even start? I was honestly just curious of Kobe's record without his main coach.

[ImKobe]

Who's to say he wasn't being 'Duncan' though? He was still very easily one of the highest impact defenders in the league, and all the other stats show he was at worst the 3rd best Spur (he was #2 behind Manu in reality).

Even if you exclude the 97 season, Pop is still only 57-59 without Duncan (and that's with Manu, Parker, Robinson, Bowen, Leonard, Green, etc...the greatest help in NBA history according to you Kobe fans).

And since Duncan has exited his prime (2008-present), Pop is 31-23 (again, a shitty record for an all-time great like Pop).

Kobe in 97-98 was clearly a role player though (he was slightly above one in 98, but he was clearly one if that's what 11 Duncan is)...barely a top 7 player on his team one year and clearly not higher than #4 the next....still able to win 56 and 61 games, and make it to the 2nd round and WCF...

When Duncan wasn't Duncan...yeah the Spurs won Regular Season games...but they lost in the 1st round, made it to the 2nd round, and lost in the 1st round again.

How did this shit even start? I was honestly just curious of Kobe's record without his main coach.

That's a stupid ass comparison because Kobe post-Phil was past his prime..

they got swept in the 2nd round last year with Phil. Phil goes and Kobe and Pau both play better next year and lose in 5 against an OKC squad that had Russ-KD-Ibaka-Harden when the series should have gone 6 at minimum if Blake makes a wide open corner 3, possibly 7 if Pau doesn't turn the ball over in Game 4 that leads to a KD game-winner.

Kobe dropped 42 points in his last Playoff game...

2013 he performed at the highest level he had since like 09 with 27/6/6 on 46% shooting, leading his team over wins down the stretch while playing 40+ mpg in March-April with some epic 40 pt/10 ast games and that 47 pt game against Portland... bad luck his achilles gave in at the end of the season...

Basically, Kobe past Phil still led a team to top 3 in the West without a bench and with Mike Brown (plus losing 6 MOTY for nothing) and the next year won like 26 out of of his last 40 games with no bench and Pau, Nash, Blake injured and Dwight hurt... top 5 MVP candidate both years prior to injury.

[mehyaM24]

1st in PER, 2nd in +/- and Net Rating, 2nd in Box Plus/Minus, 3rd in WS, 3nd in WS/48, 6th in league-wide RAPM.

danny green, manu and tony parker all had higher PER's in the postseason. not only that, but duncan wasn't even in the top 25 per RAPM (regular season - manu for comparisons sake, was 7th in all of RAPM), the best impact stat to date.

the last spurs' finals appearances have been spearheaded by either manu or tony with a bunch of role players (duncan). just facts.

[ImKobe]

danny green, manu and tony parker all had a higher PER's in the postseason. not only that, but duncan wasn't even in the top 25 per RAPM (regular season - manu for comparisons sake, was 7th in all of RAPM), the beast impact stat to date.

the last spurs' finals appearances have been spearheaded by either manu or tony with a bunch of role players (duncan). just facts.

But but he's an efficient role player!

[T_L_P]

That's a stupid ass comparison because Kobe post-Phil was past his prime..

they got swept in the 2nd round last year with Phil. Phil goes and Kobe and Pau both play better next year and lose in 5 against an OKC squad that had Russ-KD-Ibaka-Harden when the series should have gone 6 at minimum if Blake makes a wide open corner 3, possibly 7 if Pau doesn't turn the ball over in Game 4 that leads to a KD game-winner.

Kobe dropped 42 points in his last Playoff game...

2013 he performed at the highest level he had since like 09 with 27/6/6 on 46% shooting, leading his team over wins down the stretch while playing 40+ mpg in March-April with some epic 40 pt/10 ast games and that 47 pt game against Portland... bad luck his achilles gave in at the end of the season...

Basically, Kobe past Phil still led a team to top 3 in the West without a bench and with Mike Brown (plus losing 6 MOTY for nothing) and the next year won like 26 out of of his last 40 games with no bench and Pau, Nash, Blake injured and Dwight hurt... top 5 MVP candidate both years prior to injury.

I didn't make my post trying to spark an argument...I was just curious of the record.

But for the record, this comparison (which I'd rather not continue) was more about Pop and Phil, and how much they won without their star(s)...not Duncan vs. Kobe.

Kobe's had shitty help post-Phil and, as you've said, he's past his prime himself....his W/L without Phil doesn't mean much, but I'm still interested in what it is (even after all this, I still don't know).

[mehyaM24]

one thing i will say, though, is that duncan's defense had a ton of impact these last few years. he wasn't better than tony in 2013 or manu last year, but his defense ALONE made him a pretty high impact player regardless of role.

[T_L_P]

danny green, manu and tony parker all had higher PER's in the postseason. not only that, but duncan wasn't even in the top 25 per RAPM (regular season - manu for comparisons sake, was 7th in all of RAPM), the best impact stat to date.

the last spurs' finals appearances have been spearheaded by either manu or tony with a bunch of role players (duncan). just facts.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2011-rapm
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2011.html

#6 and #13...where's this 'not top 25'?

From the data I've seen, Manu and Tim had almost dead even RAPM's last year.

Duncan had the better Playoff PER, WS, WS/48...and you're sure as hell not gonna tell me Tony was the spearhead last Playoffs...with his terribly average numbers (more like a role player's than Tim's have been, tbh).

Kawhi was clearly the spearhead last year, idiot.

Manu laid an egg in the Portland series of epic proportions (9/3/4 on 29% shooting, dead last in ORtg with an 80)...tell me when Tim ever played that bad..

Actually, tell me when he ever played that bad and his team still won, in convincing fashion.