Bigger Quality Gap: MJ to Kobe or Kobe to Wade

[SamuraiSWISH]

He had 50 in game 6 but they lost.

Wade had 46 points in only 3 quarters v.s. the 2010 Celtics. A vastly superior defense to the LITERAL no defense philosophy playing D'Antoni Suns. A performance better than anything Kobe mustered up against the same defense in the Finals that year.

[CAstill]

Wade had 46 points in only 3 quarters v.s. the 2010 Celtics. A vastly superior defense to the LITERAL no defense philosophy playing D'Antoni Suns. A performance better than anything Kobe mustered up against the same defense in the Finals that year.

That's because the defense had two different philosophies on the players. With Wade like Lebron you let them score as much as they can and shut down the team because that's all you have to do to win. You can't do that with Kobe because he can literally beat a team all by himself. Kobe and Jordan are a coin toss with Jordan being heads. (heads is more often to win.) Wade is a great player but he is not in the same league as Jordan and Kobe and the gap is noticeable.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe and Jordan are a coin toss

No they're really not. Phil Jackson has said otherwise. Horace Grant has said otherwise. The knowledgable basketball world doesn't believe that to be true either. Jordan has an edge clearly in his favor, on both ends of the court, on his resume, his stats. It's evident.

Kobe's great, top ten, obviously ... but he also obviously isn't a mere "coint toss" with the general consensus best player of all-time.

Difference in defensive philosophy between Kobe / LeBron / Wade v.s. the 2010 Celtics is this ... Kobe had legitimate second option who could make them pay.

Neither LeBron, or Wade had that. The real difference as to why those two were more successful? They didn't bail the defense out by tossing up contested jumpers. LeBron, and Wade attacked the basket putting more pressure on the interior of their defense.

You don't think if LeBron had 2010 Gasol on his team that he couldn't involve him and make the Celtics defense pay? He burned them two years later when they had a superior Defensive Rating.

LeBron's passing gives him an added dimension. Kobe in 2010 was gun shy about driving to the basket. That's why his best stretch in the series was that 3rd quarter in game 4 or 5 where he was draining threes from beyond area code range.

You know how Kobe fans get defensive of the comparison of Wade they deem unfair when Kobe is clearly better? It's like that for Jordan fans when Kobe gets compared. Resume separates the two clearly, does it not?

Wade - top 20
Kobe - top 10
Jordan - GOAT

It isn't a damn coin toss between MJ and Kobe. It never has been. Sure, he's replicated his skill set to the best of his abilities. He looks like him in his movements at times, that doesn't mean he's on his level.

The Iron Man trilogy mimmics beat for beat The Dark Knight trilogy. Doesn't mean it isn't good. But is it better than the real deal?

30 / 5 / 5
5x MVPs
DPOY
6 rings
6x Finals MVP

* Missed 2x years of Prime

vs

25 / 5 / 5
MVP
5 rings
2x Finals MVP

Coin Toss 4 sho

[moe94]

Some people really think Kobe is 1b to Jordan's 1a. They really do.

[Milbuck]

Some people really think Kobe is 1b to Jordan's 1a. They really do.

The people who think that have zero credibility, shouldn't be taken seriously, and quite frankly, shouldn't be allowed to post here. There's people who take that level of extreme thinking to the opposite end as well, we need to acknowledge that too.

[CAstill]

No they're really not. Phil Jackson has said otherwise. Horace Grant has said otherwise. The knowledgable basketball world doesn't believe that to be true either. Jordan has an edge clearly in his favor, on both ends of the court, on his resume, his stats. It's evident.

Kobe's great, top ten, obviously ... but he also obviously isn't a mere "coint toss" with the general consensus best player of all-time.

Difference in defensive philosophy between Kobe / LeBron / Wade v.s. the 2010 Celtics is this ... Kobe had legitimate second option who could make them pay.

Neither LeBron, or Wade had that. The real difference as to why those two were more successful? They didn't bail the defense out by tossing up contested jumpers. LeBron, and Wade attacked the basket putting more pressure on the interior of their defense.

You don't think if LeBron had 2010 Gasol on his team that he couldn't involve him and make the Celtics defense pay? He burned them two years later when they had a superior Defensive Rating.

LeBron's passing gives him an added dimension. Kobe in 2010 was gun shy about driving to the basket. That's why his best stretch in the series was that 3rd quarter in game 4 or 5 where he was draining threes from beyond area code range.

You know how Kobe fans get defensive of the comparison of Wade they deem unfair when Kobe is clearly better? It's like that for Jordan fans when Kobe gets compared. Resume separates the two clearly, does it not?

Wade - top 20
Kobe - top 10
Jordan - GOAT

It isn't a damn coin toss between MJ and Kobe. It never has been. Sure, he's replicated his skill set to the best of his abilities. He looks like him in his movements at times, that doesn't mean he's on his level.

The Iron Man trilogy mimmics beat for beat The Dark Knight trilogy. Doesn't mean it isn't good. But is it better than the real deal?

30 / 5 / 5
5x MVPs
DPOY
6 rings
6x Finals MVP

* Missed 2x years of Prime

vs

25 / 5 / 5
MVP
5 rings
2x Finals MVP

Coin Toss 4 sho

Everything you said is direct correlation to teams
When people say coin toss they mean skills. Who cares if Jordan had a better career, he was in a different position than kobe. I watched both and understood ball not like most of these kids who were caught up in nostalgia lol. Kobe and Jordan do have differences hence the coin toss. Notice how a coin has 2 different symbols on the sides of it.

And NO Leborn wouldn't of won anything with Gasol as his second option lol. You keep reaching, you're almost there lol.

As far Ironman Trilogy vs Batman trilogy that would be Jordan vs Lebron. Kobe would be Green Arrow. Both fight the League and Both are way more skilled at actually fighting, But cool suit bron

[SamuraiSWISH]

The people who think that have zero credibility, shouldn't be taken seriously, and quite frankly, shouldn't be allowed to post here. There's people who take that level of extreme thinking to the opposite end as well, we need to acknowledge that too.

I hate even having to shit on a player of Kobe's caliber. One of my 3 favorite players ever, easily. So fun to watch. A true legend of the game.

But damn man, tearing down other legends, unnecessary praise, or premature praise by Kobe's creepy fanbase has been a major contributor to the down fall of his reputation in a way. On the internet at least.

No other fan base does those things, or at least not to the extent. It all started with Kobe apostles. They set the template for STANisms on the internet.

I see LeBron stans beginning to use the same tactics. Downplay other legends, critique eras, prop up lesser players to bring down superior players

Kobe's rise, along with his psychotic fans coincided with the internet boom in the late 90's, early 2000s. They're keyboards, and monitors gave these LOONS a voice.

KB42PAH
Yao Ming's Foot
kennethgriffin
9erempire

Kobe Apostles

[CAstill]

Nah some people actually understand ball and it isn't as outlandish as you seem to think it is. I've been watching ball since the 80's and Kobe has been the second best player in that time span. Bird and Magic were very close though.

[Milbuck]

I hate even having to shit on a player of Kobe's caliber. One of my 3 favorite players ever, easily. So fun to watch. A true legend of the game.

But damn man, tearing down other legends, unnecessary praise, or premature praise by Kobe's creepy fanbase has been a major contributor to the down fall of his reputation in a way. On the internet at least.

No other fan base does those things, or at least not to the extent. It all started with Kobe apostles. They set the template for STANisms on the internet.

I see LeBron stans beginning to use the same tactics. Downplay other legends, critique eras, prop up lesser players to bring down superior players

Kobe's rise, along with his psychotic fans coincided with the internet boom in the late 90's, early 2000s. They're keyboards, and monitors gave these LOONS a voice.

KB42PAH
Yao Ming's Foot
kennethgriffin
9erempire

Kobe Apostles

Agree completely. Stans in general just ruin the way we appreciate athletes. The saddest part is that just because I defend Kobe, people continually call me a stan, a Kobe troll, etc. It's gotten so bad that you can't appreciate the guy without being labeled negatively. As if appreciating the greatness of one of the most exciting, most skilled, hard working players ever is so absurd that it has to be stanning or trolling.

There are people on here who genuinely believe that Kobe was as shitty defensively as he was for the past few seasons, for his WHOLE CAREER. I'm convinced half the posters here (and that's being generous) haven't seriously watched Kobe before 2008.

As for the bolded posters, their bullshit makes me flee on sight. I don't even engage them aside from the occasional "what the **** kenneth" post.

[kennethgriffin]

is this the type of respect a top 5-10 all time legend gets around here these days?

rings are not the only measuring stick. they are tie breakers between similar players

wade was never the kind of player kobe was. it takes more than a few fluke seasons to prove yourself


i mean... come on




kobes actual career average isnt 25ppg. its 27ppg

15mpg and 26mpg killed his career average

wades 24ppg is authentic however. his rookie year he averaged 34mpg

so although they look nearly similar.. theyre not even close in reality.




but asside from that. wade in his prime was considered miles behind kobe ( pre achilles injury ) in 2012-13

so even at the tail end of kobes career he was making 1st team all nba's over him

infact. this year. wade wont even make his typical 3rd team all nba.

not over

- harden
- paul
- curry
- wall
- lillard
- dragic


wades averaging a near career low 18ppg.. worst since his rookie year of 16ppg


the guy is only 32 and he takes more games off to rest than tim duncan

its unreal how lame this guys career path turned after his 2 year prime.

since joining lebron he isnt even a co leader. hes taken a back seat to chris bosh for god sake

who in this forum wouldnt take bosh over wade?

but seriously... putting him in the same breath as kobe is the last straw

comparable guys get their rings compared..

does this

[COLOR="Olive"]2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Olive"]2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Olive"]2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (3rd)[/COLOR]



compare to this

1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]1999-00 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)[/COLOR]
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)


come on.. i know sometimes voters get it wrong. but at some point you gotta say " well maybe if wade has as much success individually as penny hardaway. he might not be on kobes level

hmmmmmmmmm



jordan is top 3 ( no doubt ) arguably goat

kobe is top 10 ( no doubt ) arguably top 5-6

wade is top 40 ( no doubt ) arguably top 30


theres a bigger gap between wade/kobe than kobe/jordan


wake the f*** up

[SamuraiSWISH]

When people say coin toss they mean skills.

But what matters is PRODUCTION. They're skills isn't a coin toss either. If you claim to understand ball the way you say you do ...

MJ was the superior:
Off Ball
Catch and Shoot
Mid Range %
Team Defender
Man Defender
Basketball IQ
Finisher @ Rim

Kobe was the superior:
Long Ball
Free Throw Shooter
Ball Handling (and this is debatable, different stylistic choice)

But clearly you know so much about basketball, more than myself and obviously understood these difference in SKILL.

Who cares if Jordan had a better career

Because errr it's relvant when grading players. Why would it NOT matter?

Jordan do have differences hence the coin toss. Notice how a coin has 2 different symbols on the sides of it.

Notice how a coin is a 50 / 50 chance of ending up either symbol. No one with respectable basketball opinions claims it's a toss up between the two in terms of impact, even skill, especially not RESULTS.

But seriously, outside of your delusion, it isn't a coin toss. Per everyone who isn't a Kobe stan. Kobe's great, he just isn't as great as Jordan. He attempted to be a carbon copy, he didn't become it in all facets.

Jordan's superior consistency, superior intangibles, superior leadership, superior athleticism all make him better. And are the REASON he had a better career and more success.

You sound really dumb right now, dude. You're grasping at straws with weak reasoning to support your Kobe = Jordan agenda. It's loony. We don't believe you ... you need more loons.

As far Ironman Trilogy vs Batman trilogy

You're not getting it ... I'm comparing the movie franchises as a whole as allegory. The overall quality. The Iron Man trilogy copies beat for beat The Dark Knight trilogy. It isn't original, and it didn't do it near as well. Still entertaining though.

Thus the Kobe (IM trilogy) v.s. Jordan (TDK trilogy)

If Jordan as a character is Batman, the ultimate skilled crime fighter ... Kobe would be his willing but lesser apprentice Nightwing, who was inspired by MJ's whole image, philosophy, and skill set. Nightwing isn't original, and he didn't have the inherent physical tools The Batman had. Just like Kobe to Jordan.

I've watched basketball since the early 90s. LeBron is the second best basketball player I've ever seen. Does he lack heart? Sure. Kobe's 3rd best guard / wing I've ever seen. Probably top five player I've ever seen. Non bias, just truth.

[Papaya Petee]

jordan is top 3 ( no doubt ) arguably goat

kobe is top 10 ( no doubt ) arguably top 5-6

wade is top 40 ( no doubt ) arguably top 30


theres a bigger gap between wade/kobe than kobe/jordan

Holy shit you are retarded and couldn't be more wrong. I am not even going to break down the rest of your post and how Kobe gotten about 5 All-Defensive teams and 2-3 All-NBA teams undeserving. I can even take that stupid bullshit about Kobe playing 16 mpg and 25 mpg even though he wasn't nowhere good enough to play more. I'm not even going to talk about how Kobe has choked against multiple playoff teams such as Mavericks Celtics or Pistons that Wade ended up beasting against.

But to rank Wade 30-40 all time just shows how ****ing retarded you are.

[red1]

I hate even having to shit on a player of Kobe's caliber. One of my 3 favorite players ever, easily. So fun to watch. A true legend of the game.

But damn man, tearing down other legends, unnecessary praise, or premature praise by Kobe's creepy fanbase has been a major contributor to the down fall of his reputation in a way. On the internet at least.

No other fan base does those things, or at least not to the extent. It all started with Kobe apostles. They set the template for STANisms on the internet.

I see LeBron stans beginning to use the same tactics. Downplay other legends, critique eras, prop up lesser players to bring down superior players

Kobe's rise, along with his psychotic fans coincided with the internet boom in the late 90's, early 2000s. They're keyboards, and monitors gave these LOONS a voice.

KB42PAH
Yao Ming's Foot
kennethgriffin
9erempire

Kobe Apostles

Yeah man. Shit is pathetic and is no different from teenage girls who are obsessed with pop stars. It is literally THE EXACT SAME THING. They are obsessed with an image they have in their minds and it has nothing to do with basketball anymore. F*cking embarrassing.

Exhibit A:

is this the type of respect a top 5-10 all time legend gets around here these days?

rings are not the only measuring stick. they are tie breakers between similar players

wade was never the kind of player kobe was. it takes more than a few fluke seasons to prove yourself


i mean... come on




kobes actual career average isnt 25ppg. its 27ppg

15mpg and 26mpg killed his career average

wades 24ppg is authentic however. his rookie year he averaged 34mpg

so although they look nearly similar.. theyre not even close in reality.




but asside from that. wade in his prime was considered miles behind kobe ( pre achilles injury ) in 2012-13

so even at the tail end of kobes career he was making 1st team all nba's over him

infact. this year. wade wont even make his typical 3rd team all nba.

not over

- harden
- paul
- curry
- wall
- lillard
- dragic


wades averaging a near career low 18ppg.. worst since his rookie year of 16ppg


the guy is only 32 and he takes more games off to rest than tim duncan

its unreal how lame this guys career path turned after his 2 year prime.

since joining lebron he isnt even a co leader. hes taken a back seat to chris bosh for god sake

who in this forum wouldnt take bosh over wade?

but seriously... putting him in the same breath as kobe is the last straw

comparable guys get their rings compared..

does this

[COLOR="Olive"]2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Olive"]2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Olive"]2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (3rd)[/COLOR]



compare to this

1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]1999-00 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)[/COLOR]
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
[COLOR="Olive"]2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)[/COLOR]
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)


come on.. i know sometimes voters get it wrong. but at some point you gotta say " well maybe if wade has as much success individually as penny hardaway. he might not be on kobes level

hmmmmmmmmm



jordan is top 3 ( no doubt ) arguably goat

kobe is top 10 ( no doubt ) arguably top 5-6

wade is top 40 ( no doubt ) arguably top 30


theres a bigger gap between wade/kobe than kobe/jordan


wake the f*** up

[Teanett]

prime- bigger gap is Kobe to Wade.. to put in perspective, Wade's 12, 13 playoff runs match up career wise with Kobe's 08, 09 seasons.. where Kobe was still a beast and Wade was a shell .

peak- obviously much bigger gap between kobe/MJ

Career- about the same.. Wade top 20ish, Kobe top 10ish, MJ the GOAT