If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

[Rooster]

Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.

The different rules cleared the lanes for guards to dribble drive and penetrate and allowed space specialist to thrive because teams would rather give 3 point shot then a layup. The game has evolve that way.

[3ball]

Also, as defense has gotten better overall, so has offence. No more iso iso iso:

^^^ Pure lies - Lebron James and James Harden lead the league in isolations by isolating on 26% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/iso...sive&sort=Time


Screen-roll makes up another 26% of Lebron's possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...sive&sort=Time


Accordingly, screen-roll and isolations make up 52% of Lebron's possessions..

This is the way it is for MOST wings in the NBA - screen-roll and isolations make up over 50% of their possesssions... For guys like Reggie Jackson, Chris Paul and Lillard, they make up over 60 and 70% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...sive&sort=Time

[Rooster]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2001/

27 & 13 on .541%fg against duncan AND drob


MDE

In his prime, that is average for him plus his FG was too low. Spurs were playing illegal defense though. NBA has to change the rules to their favor.

[Rose'sACL]

^^^ Pure ****ing lies - Lebron James and James Harden lead the league in isolations by isolating on 26% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/iso...sive&sort=Time


Screen-roll makes up another 26% of Lebron's possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...sive&sort=Time


Accordingly, screen-roll and isolations make up 52% of Lebron's possessions..

This is the way it is for MOST wings in the NBA - screen-roll and isolations make up over 50% of their possesssions... For guys like Reggie Jackson, Chris Paul and Lillard, they make up over 60 and 70% of their possessions:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...sive&sort=Time

so instead of posting league stats, you posted lebron stats.
nice to see that you like lebron so much.

[3ball]

[COLOR="Red"]Shaq is MDE ever (except the stats below prove MJ was more dominant)
[/COLOR]

Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')



REGULAR SEASON

MJ..... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ..... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% TS.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% TS.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ..... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq.. 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


Shaq and MJ's assists and rebounds cancel each other out.. Same with steals and blocks.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so TS% and ORtg were used for efficiency.

Btw, MJ and Shaq are the only players in modern era to win a championship while leading the league in scoring, except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's 1 time.
.

[mehyaM24]

In his prime, that is average for him plus his FG was too low. Spurs were playing illegal defense though. NBA has to change the rules to their favor.

those are dominant numbers against 2 of the best defensive bigs in the game - during the playoffs.


those might be somewhere near his career average, but his career average is ATG.


his peak = widely known as MDE.

[mehyaM24]

When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.

league wide drtg along with pace is why the 90s defense was "so-so" compared to 2000-2005


so no, it's not based on opinion. its a well-known historical fact.

look it up.

Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.

i don't care much for h2h stats, especially with a perimeter player that didn't see as much competition at sg as shaq did center.


shaq in his third season played peak hakeem to a stastitcal draw. literally.

for their careers:


Hakeem: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01


domination


other centers?


Mourning: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=mournal01


Ewing: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01


Robinson: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=robinda01


Mutombo: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01


Sabonis: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01


Wallace: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=wallabe01



all against the best 90s centers, and shaq still shreded them. he raised his play against the best, and held them in check doing so - look at their career numbers vs the matchips against shaq.

[3ball]

Shaq is MDE

MJ's stats and clutch were much better.. That's a fact.

all against the best 90s centers, and shaq still shreded them.

His stats were basically equal with Hakeem and Robinson's...

More importantly, he lost with stacked teams over and over again in the 90's.. He didn't win shit until he got an MJ clone... THOSE are the facts.

And his stats were worse than MJ's.

[GrapeApe]

When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.

Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.



Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.

In the 90's, Shaq had more stacked teams than he had with Kobe, but he got destroyed by Houston, MJ's Bulls, and Utah (Utah swept him twice - first in 1997, and then in 1998 when Shaq played with 3 other all-stars).



.
Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')



REGULAR SEASON

MJ..... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ..... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% TS.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% TS.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ..... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq.. 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


Shaq and MJ's assists and rebounds cancel each other out.. Same with steals and blocks.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so TS% and ORtg were used for efficiency.

Btw, MJ and Shaq are the only players in modern era to win a championship while leading the league in scoring, except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's 1 time.
.

I'm not saying that peak Shaq > peak MJ, but we all know Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers. Peak Shaq was the most disruptive force the game has ever seen. Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender. Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit. Also, you cannot omit Shaq's rebounding advantage and simply say that MJ's assists cancel it out. That doesn't even make sense, especially considering Shaq was an outstanding passer in his own right. The only reason peak Jordan ranks higher is FT shooting (which albeit is critically important).

[ralph_i_el]

Offensive players are better too

[mehyaM24]

MJ's stats and clutch were much better.. That's a fact.

mj didn't face the comeptition shaq did at center.


fact

His stats were basically equal with Hakeem and Robinson's...

More importantly, he lost with stacked teams over and over again in the 90's.. He didn't win shit until he got an MJ clone... THOSE are the facts.

And his stats were worse than MJ's.

shaq = better peak player, better career stats, and outplayed all those centers, h2h.

just click those links i posted


and no, shaq won his first ring with kobe playing at role players status. the role player kobe averaged just 16ppg in the finals on piss poor efficiency.

good enough to the 5th best scorer in the series - well behind shaq.


so shaq not only faced better competition at his position (meaning his stats are more impressive), but also won a title with little to no help.


jordan cant claim that - he was too busy letting pippen take over the team e.g. in playmaking, defending and leaderhsip.


basically without pippen, jordan was 1-9 in the postseason.

[J Shuttlesworth]

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.

[warriorfan]

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.

Defensive players not being allowed to lay a finger on a player with out a whistle has something to do with it...

[3ball]

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.

Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.

[GrapeApe]

Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.

You do realize the 3 point line was closer in 1997 right? I mean, don't let facts get in the way or anything.