If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

[3ball]

But it isn't.. From 2008-2011, league-wide ORtg was the highest it's ever been - it reached an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009*.

This proves that there have been offsetting factors - in 2005, when defenders were permitted to play zone outside the paint, this was offset by zone being banned inside the paint, where defenders were required to stay within "armslength" of their man to remain in the paint.

So while defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint, they're hog-tied inside the paint - "armslength" is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offset zones outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired).


* In 2009, when the NBA's ORtg peaked at 108.3, teams attempted 18.0 threes per game, which is nearly the same as the 16.8 threes attempted in 1997, when ORtg was only 106.7.. In 2006 and 2007, teams attempted 16.0 threes per game, or LESS than 1997, and ORtg was 106.5.
.

[robby712]

I really don't know why I bother with you...Your post claims that the number of 3's is similar with the 1997 season or so. But now there are more players shooting a high % on more attempts per game. Also, as defense has gotten better overall, so has offence. No more iso iso iso

[mehyaM24]

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).

[Trollsmasher]

players got better and their superior skills from the 3 point land allow them to run better offenses

[sd3035]

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).

so kobe's 35.4 in 2005/06 season is equivalent to like 40 today

[kshutts1]

But it isn't.. From 2008-2011, league-wide ORtg was the highest it's ever been - it reached an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009*.

This proves that there have been offsetting factors - in 2005, when defenders were permitted to play zone outside the paint, this was offset by zone being banned inside the paint, where defenders were required to stay within "armslength" of their man to remain in the paint.

So while defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint, they're hog-tied inside the paint - "armslength" is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offset zones outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired).


* In 2009, when the NBA's ORtg peaked at 108.3, teams attempted 18.0 threes per game, which is nearly the same as the 16.8 threes attempted in 1997, when ORtg was only 106.7.. In 2006 and 2007, teams attempted 16.0 threes per game, or LESS than 1997, and ORtg was 106.5.
.

I don't know how ORtg is calculated, so this is a legit question. Not one of my normal 3ball-responses snarky comment things.

How much of an affect does the additional 3p % point (36.7 vs 36) in 08/09 over 96/97 affect the rating? What about the additional 3.3% in FT% (.771 vs .738)?

Edit: 3p change is minimal, but considering the uptick in attempts as well, I feel it's noteworthy.

[mehyaM24]

so kobe's 35.4 in 2005/06 season is equivalent to like 40 today

in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).

[sd3035]

in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).

T-Mac 2002-03 was one of the all time great offensive years then

TMAC was an animal that year

[HurricaneKid]

Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.

[3ball]

so-so defense (in the 90's).

When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.

Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.

Shaq dominated in the 90s

Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.

In the 90's, Shaq had more stacked teams than he had with Kobe, but he got destroyed by Houston, MJ's Bulls, and Utah (Utah swept him twice - first in 1997, and then in 1998 when Shaq played with 3 other all-stars).
.

[mehyaM24]

T-Mac 2002-03 was one of the all time great offensive years then

TMAC was an animal that year

tmac was great, but i don't think you're reading my posts correctly.

you know the perimeter players in the 80s and early 90s all shooting WELL over 50%?


that isn't happening from 2000-2005.

[3ball]

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball.

Defenders have to cover so much more ground.

The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously

[Rooster]

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).

Shaq can't dominate the Spurs though.

[guy]

Since 1980, the highest Ortg is 108.3 and the lowest is 102.2. The difference between the two is 6%. It's so incredibly stupid that this is always a topic and people feel the need to make that distinction especially when we are talking about individual stats across eras.

[mehyaM24]

Shaq can't dominate the Spurs though.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2001/

27 & 13 on .541%fg against duncan AND drob


MDE