Is the Lebron vs Kobe debate pretty much settled?

[SpaceJam]

AJ catching bodies

['Toine=MVP]

No no the reasons you come up with are on the eye of the beholder not just because of popularity.

Like for example, I broke down an Elgin Baylor video once it's like an hour of his footage and pieced together all in play-type statistics. In doing the project I dove deep into his skillset and of course learned of his accolades along the way.

Big basketball resume, like I mean way bigger than a wikipedia or basketball reference page would reveal - I mean as he climbed the ranks to even get to the NBA all sorts of obscure college and DC and writer awards we today don't even look at or have documentation of but I did because I was following his auction a few years ago and saw the endless supply of trophies and awards.

Combine that with the fact that I discovered he did every basketball play-type statistic and did a large handful of them exceptionally exceptionally well, and with is own unique methods and I can easily see why there were like 6 guys I was able to find testimony of that just put Baylor - of all players - as either their "greatest all around" player, or even their "greatest ever"

Yes - a guy with no rings. And several NBA legends had him at their #1. It's not because they are simply trying to be different about the popularity contest. Believe it or not Baylor has a unique enough career that they observed up close and personally to take them to that conclusion. For Baylor to continue this example it tends to be that they saw him do "everything" so exceptionally well that they didn't care that he didn't win it all in some storybook ending way like we love to obsess over today. They saw what he could do, were in amazement of it, thought he was better at what he did than everyone else, and that was all they needed.

This stuff is all opinion based. I never understood the whole consensus thing and I would never argue with someone else that they are wrong for thinking another player is the greatest of all time. The only time I'd interject is of course if they had a very clear cut criteria, and they seem to be overlooking other players that also fall well within their criteria for consideration. Just to probe to see how well they did their research if nothing else. But I think it's definitely all opinion based just my 2 cents. The media loves to make it seem unanimous but how can it be, I've heard so many people obsess over so many different players that I kind of think it's boring to even crown 1 or 2 guys and gloss over the rest

I don't have a problem with any of this. And of course it is all opinion based. The question here is whether or LeBron's rank relative to Kobe's is settled or not. I answered that it HASN'T settled yet, mainly because LeBron's is ranked very highly by some people that are highly focused on just today's game. Most won't even be the same people ranking players 10+ years from now, but many of the ones who still care will either move on to the next big thing and "correct" their previous few on LeBron to emphasis the gap between him and this new guy, or they will mature and change their minds about LeBron a bit or start looking at different criteria. Either way, we can't compare the way guys retired for 20, 30, 40 years are looked at to ones in the media every day.

I expounded on that a bit, saying that the consensus subjective opinion has settled on one thing for sure. And that is that MJ should be considered the greatest of all time. All we are talking about when we talk about what is settled is opinion. And when you read the stuff presented by the people that have MJ anywhere other than #1, they are always contorted and not really resembling anything like what a consensus measure of greatness is or should be. So it isn't settled that he was more talented. It isn't settled that he would have won more titles with random good teammates vs others. It isn't settled that he made the NBA what it is today more than any other player either (one of the main factors in determining legacy/greatness). But his rank is settled, since as you said, it is all opinion based anyway. A consensus opinion has clearly solidified.

[hiphopanonymous]

You stopped using that account right after LeBron won with Cleveland and people were bumping up a bunch of your threads. Alt = Alternative. This is your alternative (alts) account, among a bunch of others.

Aj - that isn't what happened my most recent posts were up until last year - I faded out for other reasons that had nothing to do with insidehoops. I'm not a troll, I genuinely love to talk basketball but I've always noticed you seem to have a chip on your shoulder against everyone on here including really good posters or in civil discussions - I assure you we can have a discussion with respect for each other - if you're willing

You're a Wilt stan, right? Then you must agree with stats and facts, all of which PROVE that LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe.

How old are you? I'm in my 30's now. I've been running a youtube channel in his namesake for the greater part of this decade - after the age of 30 and knowing my post history holding so many other all time greats in high or "goat" tier reverence and having done so much deep dives into the history of the game it kind of seems silly to just write me off as a stan no? I can make a case for so many players as greatest ever for so many different reasons. LeBron included. No, I wont accept the label of a "wilt stan". I'm a basketball fan. Wilt is one of my favorite players but I can separate myself from that with zero effort and argue til I'm blue in the face the case for just about any player in the past 60 years so long as someone is missing them on specific criteria which those players should deserve to be mentioned in. I'm a hobbyist historian of the game.

KAT and Embiid can arguably score in more ways than Wilt. Do you agree that they're better scorers than Wilt?

I agree that they certainly show far more ways of scoring than Wilt. This era of all eras is the most encouraging era for it. Bigs play face up more than they do back to basket anymore. Closer to Wilt's era though, Jabbar, and Hakeem had more variety. This is an example where due to his scoring accolades I propose effectiveness trumps skill. If LeBron for example, was the one who scored 81 points and not Kobe, and averaged 35 and not Kobe, multiple 60 point games etc etc - I'd be stating that LeBron's game is more effective in spite of his lower variety. It's the combo of what they did mixed with how they did it. You can't look at it all in a vacuum. Understand my position? I take this same position with Shaq and Hakeem. I think Hakeem can dream shake Shaq to his hearts desire, Shaq's jump hook is a less varied, more predictable - but more consistently unstoppable move.

Their numbers (in context of their rules and eras of course) have to be looked at in combination with their skillset. In the Kobe and LeBron case since Kobe's numbers at his peak are superior I consider him to be a better scorer - either in the vacuum of his peak or if you add the disclaimer when he's got the hot hand. Hell I think Kobe when he's at his peak and in the zone he is one of the greatest scorers ever. Several guys I put there.

Sure, but it's like arguing who did better on a math test when person a scores 90% and person b scores 95%.

It isn't really... not unelss you treat your opinions as facts. Or unless you only consider their career ppg the measure of scoring. To which case I'd just question why you choose to ignore peak season scoring? High output games? I dunno, kinda circles back to opinion here if we're being honest about all the ways we can look at scoring doesn't it? Not "90 vs 95".

[aj1987]

AJ catching bodies

That dude back to spamming his LeBron jerk time pictures.

[34-24 Footwork]

Shaq
Mj
Wade
Dirk
KD
Kyrie

(More)


...all greats who have Kobe as the second best player EVER.

But I'll go with the opinion of thre nerd that continuously posts percentages on here...

Or the 300 lb lard Ass who works at Fox or ESPN and never played a sport in their life.

[aj1987]

Aj - that isn't what happened my most recent posts were up until last year - I faded out for other reasons that had nothing to do with insidehoops. I'm not a troll, I genuinely love to talk basketball but I've always noticed you seem to have a chip on your shoulder against everyone on here including really good posters or in civil discussions - I assure you we can have a discussion with respect for each other - if you're willing

I used to have fun discussing ball with posters like fplii, bizil, micku, Kuniva, etc.. All of them are very good posters.

How old are you? I'm in my 30's now.

Same age as you.

I've been running a youtube channel in his namesake for the greater part of this decade - after the age of 30 and knowing my post history holding so many other all time greats in high or "goat" tier reverence and having done so much deep dives into the history of the game it kind of seems silly to just write me off as a stan no? I can make a case for so many players as greatest ever for so many different reasons. LeBron included. No, I wont accept the label of a "wilt stan". I'm a basketball fan. Wilt is one of my favorite players but I can separate myself from that with zero effort and argue til I'm blue in the face the case for just about any player in the past 60 years so long as someone is missing them on specific criteria which those players should deserve to be mentioned in. I'm a hobbyist historian of the game.

Wilt Chamberlain Archive, right? Haven't been on your channel in a while.

BTW, you haven't answered my question.

I agree that they certainly show far more ways of scoring than Wilt. This era of all eras is the most encouraging era for it. Bigs play face up more than they do back to basket anymore. Closer to Wilt's era though, Jabbar, and Hakeem had more variety. This is an example where due to his scoring accolades I propose effectiveness trumps skill. If LeBron for example, was the one who scored 81 points and not Kobe, and averaged 35 and not Kobe, multiple 60 point games etc etc - I'd be stating that LeBron's game is more effective in spite of his lower variety. It's the combo of what they did mixed with how they did it. You can't look at it all in a vacuum. Understand my position? I take this same position with Shaq and Hakeem. I think Hakeem can dream shake Shaq to his hearts desire, Shaq's jump hook is a less varied, more predictable - but more consistently unstoppable move.

Their numbers (in context of their rules and eras of course) have to be looked at in combination with their skillset. In the Kobe and LeBron case since Kobe's numbers at his peak are superior I consider him to be a better scorer - either in the vacuum of his peak or if you add the disclaimer when he's got the hot hand. Hell I think Kobe when he's at his peak and in the zone he is one of the greatest scorers ever. Several guys I put there.

Kobe in the Playoffs:

5640 points in 220 PO games

LeBron in the Playoffs:

6911 in 239 PO games

+1200 points in 16 games more played for LeBron

Kobe PPG in the PO's:

25.6 PPG

LeBron PPG in the PO's:

28.9 PPG

+3.3 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the PO's:

54.1% TS

LeBron efficiency in the PO's:

57.9% TS

+3.8% more efficient

In short, LeBron scores 3.3 PPG more than Kobe in the PO's on 3.8% better
efficiency.

Doesn't end there.

50 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 1 (you Brick turds consider his to be the GOAT scorer and he has ONE
50pt game in the PO's?)

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 5

LeBron - 11

40 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 27

35 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 39

LeBron - 56

30 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 88

LeBron - 110

25 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 123

LeBron - 165

20 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 167

LeBron - 214

LeBron has scored under 20 points only 25 times in his career. Kobe did it 53
times. There's something Kobe can beat LeBron at.

I know you idiots are going to say LeBron was facing wack competition in the
East.

Lets look at the Finals numbers, shall we?

Kobe PPG in the Finals:

25.3 PPG

LeBron PPG in the Finals:

28.3 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the Finals:

51% TS

LeBron efficiency in the Finals:

56% TS

LeBron scores 3 more PPG on 5% better efficiency than Kobe in the Finals.
LeBron does this while facing significantly better competition, BTW.

Lets go in a bit deeper.

50 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

40 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 1

LeBron - 7

35 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 4

LeBron - 11

30 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 20

25 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 22

LeBron - 33

20 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 30

LeBron - 41

It isn't really... not unelss you treat your opinions as facts. Or unless you only consider their career ppg the measure of scoring. To which case I'd just question why you choose to ignore peak season scoring? High output games? I dunno, kinda circles back to opinion here if we're being honest about all the ways we can look at scoring doesn't it? Not "90 vs 95".

Outside probably the two seasons when Kobe when full on chuck mode, LeBron >>> Kobe as a scorer.

Lets not forget that your previous argument was that Kobe is a better scorer because he can score in more ways..

[hiphopanonymous]

I used to have fun discussing ball with posters like fplii, bizil, micku, Kuniva, etc.. All of them are very good posters.



Same age as you.


Wilt Chamberlain Archive, right? Haven't been on your channel in a while.

BTW, you haven't answered my question.



Kobe in the Playoffs:

5640 points in 220 PO games

LeBron in the Playoffs:

6911 in 239 PO games

+1200 points in 16 games more played for LeBron

Kobe PPG in the PO's:

25.6 PPG

LeBron PPG in the PO's:

28.9 PPG

+3.3 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the PO's:

54.1% TS

LeBron efficiency in the PO's:

57.9% TS

+3.8% more efficient

In short, LeBron scores 3.3 PPG more than Kobe in the PO's on 3.8% better
efficiency.

Doesn't end there.

50 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 1 (you Brick turds consider his to be the GOAT scorer and he has ONE
50pt game in the PO's?)

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 5

LeBron - 11

40 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 27

35 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 39

LeBron - 56

30 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 88

LeBron - 110

25 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 123

LeBron - 165

20 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 167

LeBron - 214

LeBron has scored under 20 points only 25 times in his career. Kobe did it 53
times. There's something Kobe can beat LeBron at.

I know you idiots are going to say LeBron was facing wack competition in the
East.

Lets look at the Finals numbers, shall we?

Kobe PPG in the Finals:

25.3 PPG

LeBron PPG in the Finals:

28.3 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the Finals:

51% TS

LeBron efficiency in the Finals:

56% TS

LeBron scores 3 more PPG on 5% better efficiency than Kobe in the Finals.
LeBron does this while facing significantly better competition, BTW.

Lets go in a bit deeper.

50 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

40 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 1

LeBron - 7

35 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 4

LeBron - 11

30 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 20

25 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 22

LeBron - 33

20 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 30

LeBron - 41


Outside probably the two seasons when Kobe when full on chuck mode, LeBron >>> Kobe as a scorer.

Lets not forget that your previous argument was that Kobe is a better scorer because he can score in more ways..

Yep that's my channel - and ah yes I did forget to answer your question in that one bit I overlooked it my mistake

So your facts you bring to the table do bolster LeBron's case from the angle that he has indeed scored highly in a greater number of Playoffs and Finals than Kobe. Not an angle I've actually seen often but a good one. I won't disagree that that is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to place him as a greater scorer if you most heavily weight those reasons as opposed to - as you put it Kobe's "chucker" seasons. I in fact, heavily weigh those "chucker" seasons which clearly, you don't value as much lol.

I would just like to counterpoint if I may however, that Kobe has less finals appearances and less total playoff games than LeBron in what many would consider a tougher conference for the majority of their respective careers. Ergo less opportunities to show his stuff and for example, light a team up for 40+.

I think the LeBron version that did light up GSW on the Cavs though was probably the best scoring LeBron ever - I saw it up close - and if someone was to pick a best version of LeBron that I'd pay to see settle the debate if it were possible that's the version I'd pick of LeBron at his scoring best that I saw.

And again to reiterate my argument about scoring variety was tied to what they accomplished in tandem with how they do it - if that wasn't made immediately clear.

[knicksman]

I used to have fun discussing ball with posters like fplii, bizil, micku, Kuniva, etc.. All of them are very good posters.



Same age as you.


Wilt Chamberlain Archive, right? Haven't been on your channel in a while.

BTW, you haven't answered my question.



Kobe in the Playoffs:

5640 points in 220 PO games

LeBron in the Playoffs:

6911 in 239 PO games

+1200 points in 16 games more played for LeBron

Kobe PPG in the PO's:

25.6 PPG

LeBron PPG in the PO's:

28.9 PPG

+3.3 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the PO's:

54.1% TS

LeBron efficiency in the PO's:

57.9% TS

+3.8% more efficient

In short, LeBron scores 3.3 PPG more than Kobe in the PO's on 3.8% better
efficiency.

Doesn't end there.

50 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 1 (you Brick turds consider his to be the GOAT scorer and he has ONE
50pt game in the PO's?)

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 5

LeBron - 11

40 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 27

35 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 39

LeBron - 56

30 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 88

LeBron - 110

25 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 123

LeBron - 165

20 point games in the Playoffs:

Kobe - 167

LeBron - 214

LeBron has scored under 20 points only 25 times in his career. Kobe did it 53
times. There's something Kobe can beat LeBron at.

I know you idiots are going to say LeBron was facing wack competition in the
East.

Lets look at the Finals numbers, shall we?

Kobe PPG in the Finals:

25.3 PPG

LeBron PPG in the Finals:

28.3 PPG

Kobe efficiency in the Finals:

51% TS

LeBron efficiency in the Finals:

56% TS

LeBron scores 3 more PPG on 5% better efficiency than Kobe in the Finals.
LeBron does this while facing significantly better competition, BTW.

Lets go in a bit deeper.

50 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

45 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 0

LeBron - 1

40 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 1

LeBron - 7

35 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 4

LeBron - 11

30 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 13

LeBron - 20

25 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 22

LeBron - 33

20 point games in the Finals:

Kobe - 30

LeBron - 41


Outside probably the two seasons when Kobe when full on chuck mode, LeBron >>> Kobe as a scorer.

Lets not forget that your previous argument was that Kobe is a better scorer because he can score in more ways..

statnerd is back to posting stats

[Duncan21formvp]

Yes as Lebron is afraid of Kobe.

[Duncan21formvp]

What is the record vs Dwight Howard in the playoffs with HCA or Kevin Garnett?

Dwight beat Lebron when Lebron had HCA
Garnett beat Lebron when Lebron had HCA


Kobe beat Dwight when Kobe had HCA
Kobe beat Garnett when Kobe had HCA

[LAmbruh]

Another landslide victory for Lebron Fam



easy work

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol.

AJ coming thru with the reddit spam

[TheCorporation]

That dude back to spamming his LeBron jerk time pictures.

EliteStalker? Yeah, he is a strange one

[ImKobe]

since we love reddit so much

Playoffs:

Lebron

He is 40/106 in clutch situation

His free throw shooting is 49/67

True Shooting is, 49.8%

Assist per 36: 4.2 assists

Turnovers per 36: 4.2 turnovers

Kobe

He is 40/96 in clutch situations.

His free throw shooting is 67/79

His true shooting is 58 %

Assists per 36: 4.3 assists

Turnovers per 36: 1.7 turnovers

Finals: Last 2 minutes, margin of 3.

Lebron

He is 4/23 in clutch situations

His free throw shooting is 10/14

His true shooting is 31%

Assists per 36: 3.7 assists

TO per 36: 3.7 TO

Kobe

He is 10/20 in clutch situations

His free throw shooting is 4/5

His true shooting is 56.4%

Assists per 36: 7.5 assists

TO per 36: 1.5 TO

Finals: Last 5 minutes, margin of 5.

Lebron

17/62 in clutch situations in the finals.

32% EFG

43% TS.

Assists per 36: 4.26

TO per 36: 3.1

Kobe

28/63 in clutch situations in the finals.

46% EFG

53% TS.

Assists per 36: 3.6

TO per 36: 1.08

It was over in 2017, nothing's changed since then

cherry-pick your Lebron averages, when half the teams he's beat didn't even win 50+ games in the Playoffs, enjoy the stat-padded numbers vs 40-win Pacers teams

[knicksman]

since we love reddit so much

Playoffs:

Lebron

He is 40/106 in clutch situation

His free throw shooting is 49/67

True Shooting is, 49.8%

Assist per 36: 4.2 assists

Turnovers per 36: 4.2 turnovers

Kobe

He is 40/96 in clutch situations.

His free throw shooting is 67/79

His true shooting is 58 %

Assists per 36: 4.3 assists

Turnovers per 36: 1.7 turnovers

Finals: Last 2 minutes, margin of 3.

Lebron

He is 4/23 in clutch situations

His free throw shooting is 10/14

His true shooting is 31%

Assists per 36: 3.7 assists

TO per 36: 3.7 TO

Kobe

He is 10/20 in clutch situations

His free throw shooting is 4/5

His true shooting is 56.4%

Assists per 36: 7.5 assists

TO per 36: 1.5 TO

Finals: Last 5 minutes, margin of 5.

Lebron

17/62 in clutch situations in the finals.

32% EFG

43% TS.

Assists per 36: 4.26

TO per 36: 3.1

Kobe

28/63 in clutch situations in the finals.

46% EFG

53% TS.

Assists per 36: 3.6

TO per 36: 1.08

It was over in 2017, nothing's changed since then

cherry-pick your Lebron averages, when half the teams he's beat didn't even win 50+ games in the Playoffs, enjoy the stat-padded numbers vs 40-win Pacers teams

and whats more surprising is that kobe even averaged more assists