Wilt's Actual Decline in His Finals

[Asukal]

Wall of texts everywhere yet ethered by a simple "he scored his points in garbage time". Poor jlauber.

[millwad]

I used to dislike Jlauber/Lazeruss but nowadays I just feel bad for him. We all have favorite players and teams but this old guy has taken it extremely far. I can't imagine him living a normal life being this obsessed with a dead basketball player.

The amount of time he spends on the net just to defend Wilt is shocking. I mean, he defends Wilt like they would be family and he takes every negative post about Wilt so personal and he gets so butthurt that it's scary.

[dr.hee]

I used to dislike Jlauber/Lazeruss but nowadays I just feel bad for him. We all have favorite players and teams but this old guy has taken it extremely far. I can't imagine him living a normal life being this obsessed with a dead basketball player.

The amount of time he spends on the net just to defend Wilt is shocking. I mean, he defends Wilt like they would be family and he takes every negative post about Wilt so personal and he gets so butthurt that it's scary.

Well it's easy for youngbloods like us to think like that since we've still got a lot to look forward to in life. Maybe we'll become like jlauber as well when dementia and death are looming...

[deja vu]

I bet pauk will post like Lazeruss 40 years from now.

[AirFederer]

He got his rings. Let it go.

[dankok8]

@LAZERUSS

There is no evidence to suggest that Russell's teammates were better rebounders than Wilt's... In fact in the '62 playoffs Russell's teammates grabbed an average of 41.7 rpg while Wilt's teammates grabbed an average of 45.1 rpg. And yet in the EDF the Celtics were outrebounding the Warriors 75.0 rpg to 67.5 rpg. Wilt's teammates were +3.4 on the boards vs. Russell's and yet Boston outrebounded Philly handily by +7.5. Albeit we are missing rebounding data for Game 2.

For Boston to so thoroughly outrebound the Warriors is a testament to Russell's impact.

It's a simple explanation. Russell got a disproportionate amount of tough contested rebounds, got a lot of offensive rebounds, and was great at boxing out and letting his teammates actually grab the ball. Wilt probably had a lot more easy uncontested boards and wasn't as committed to boxing out. A lot of news sources at the time call Russell the best clutch rebounder. He would grab those tough ones at the most important moments.

And again you throw fire at Wilt's teammates but Tom Meschery was the 3rd best player in that series and it's not even arguable.

Truth is if you break down the teams they are not so far apart. Two of Boston's HOF are KC Jones and Frank Ramsey who made a combined 0 all-star games between them. Excluding them Boston had a 5-4 edge in HOF talent. Sure it's an edge but not a huge one.

Guy Rodgers was almost as good as Bob Cousy
Al Attles was as good as KC Jones (better on offense, worse on defense)
Tom Gola was much worse than Sam Jones but still a good player
Paul Arizin was way better than Frank Ramsey
Tom Meschery wasn't as good as Tom Heinsohn in general but he was better in the '62 EDF
Ed Conlin was as good as Jim Loscutoff

Boston had a bit more depth with Tom Sanders and Gene Guarilla. Boston was 9 deep, Philly was 7 deep. But to pretend the gap in talent is huge is just revisionist history. Philly had more than a fighting chance. If Wilt was truly way better than Russell they would have won no doubt in my mind.

EDIT: The numbers I'm posting on the series come from here...

[LAZERUSS]

@LAZERUSS

There is no evidence to suggest that Russell's teammates were better rebounders than Wilt's... In fact in the '62 playoffs Russell's teammates grabbed an average of 41.7 rpg while Wilt's teammates grabbed an average of 45.1 rpg. And yet in the EDF the Celtics were outrebounding the Warriors 75.0 rpg to 67.5 rpg. Wilt's teammates were +3.4 on the boards vs. Russell's and yet Boston outrebounded Philly handily by +7.5. Albeit we are missing rebounding data for Game 2.

For Boston to so thoroughly outrebound the Warriors is a testament to Russell's impact.

It's a simple explanation. Russell got a disproportionate amount of tough contested rebounds, got a lot of offensive rebounds, and was great at boxing out and letting his teammates actually grab the ball. Wilt probably had a lot more easy uncontested boards and wasn't as committed to boxing out. A lot of news sources at the time call Russell the best clutch rebounder. He would grab those tough ones at the most important moments.

And again you throw fire at Wilt's teammates but Tom Meschery was the 3rd best player in that series and it's not even arguable.

Truth is if you break down the teams they are not so far apart. Two of Boston's HOF are KC Jones and Frank Ramsey who made a combined 0 all-star games between them. Excluding them Boston had a 5-4 edge in HOF talent. Sure it's an edge but not a huge one.

Guy Rodgers was almost as good as Bob Cousy
Al Attles was as good as KC Jones (better on offense, worse on defense)
Tom Gola was much worse than Sam Jones but still a good player
Paul Arizin was way better than Frank Ramsey
Tom Meschery wasn't as good as Tom Heinsohn in general but he was better in the '62 EDF
Ed Conlin was as good as Jim Loscutoff

Boston had a bit more depth with Tom Sanders and Gene Guarilla. Boston was 9 deep, Philly was 7 deep. But to pretend the gap in talent is huge is just revisionist history. Philly had more than a fighting chance. If Wilt was truly way better than Russell they would have won no doubt in my mind.

EDIT: The numbers I'm posting on the series come from here...

Ok, here were the numbers (FG%'s are for six games, with game two unknown.)

Boston:

Heinsohn: 7 games 22.1 ppg, .406 FG%
Russell: 7 games, 22.0 ppg, .399 FG%
S. Jones: 7 games, 19.3 ppg, .408 FG%
Cousy: 7 games, 15.3 ppg, .314 FG%
Ramsey: 6 games, 10.0 ppg, .378 FG%
K. Jones: 7 games, 9.1 ppg, .389
Sanders: 7 games, 7.4 ppg, .348 FG%
Braun: 4 games, 6.0 ppg, .478 FG%
Loscutoff: 7 games, 3.4 ppg, .293
Guarilia: 3 games, 2.0 ppg, .286 FG%
Phillips: 4 games, 0.0 ppg, .000 FG%


Philly:

Wilt: 7 games, 33.6 ppg, .468 FG%
Meschery: 7 games, 21.6 ppg, .417 FG%
Arizin: 7 games, 20.6 ppg, .309 FG%
Rodgers: 7 games, 13.6 ppg, .363 FG%
Attles: 7 games, 6.1 ppg, .367 FG%
Gola: 4 games, 6.0 ppg, .346 FG%
Larese: 6 games, 5.0 ppg, .381 FG%
Conlin: 7 games, 2.4 rpg, .172 FG%
Radovich: 2 games, 2.0 ppg, .167 FG%
Luckenbill: 4 games, 0.5 ppg, .000 FG%


And NO, Meschery was NOT CLEARLY the 3rd best player in the series, either. Heinsohn outscored him (22.1 ppg to 21.6 ppg), and nearly matched his FG% (.406 to .417.) Furthermore, the Celtics were sagging and swarming Chamberlain the entire series, and the reality was, Meschery was probably getting open looks the entire series. He would never again play better in his entire career.

Without FG% data from game two, the Warriors outshot the Celtics, .382 to .376. However, remove Wilt and Russell from the all seven games, and with what was known, Boston outshot Philly by a .369 to .345 margin.

Boston had CONSIDERABLY more offensive weapons, as evidenced by their scoring and FG% margins from players 2-10 (only Arizin gave Wilt any edge, and his 20.6 ppg came on an awful .309 FG%.) If anything Arizin was hurting the Warriors far more than he was helping them.

Also, Gola, who admittedly was always a poor post-season player, and who played injured (and awful) in this series, was nonetheless, their third-to-fourth best player during the regular season. He not only missed three games, he contributed absolutely nothing in two more. And since he shot .271 overall in the playoffs, I suspect that his game two was probably something like 1-5 to 1-10 shooting (as was his game one.)

Rebounding? Boston led the league during the regular season. Furthermore, GUARD Sam Jones went crazy in his known games in that series, with four games totaling 41 rebounds (10.3 rpg), including two in a row of 18 and 12.

As for Russell's "rebounding effort" being greater than Wilt's? You have to be kidding. Again, Wilt was SWARMED at his offensive end. And on the defensive end, he was not only tasked with defending Russell, but defending the entire Celtic team. There were several known examples of that throughout their post-season H2H's, but just in the last couple minutes of game seven, Wilt was called for a very questionable goal-tend on a shot by Sam Jones, and then Sam hit the game-winner...over the outstretched fingertips of... Wilt.

Chamberlain absolutely OWNED Russell on the glass in their post-season H2H's, and in fact, even articles from that series were astonished that Russell was nearly matching Wilt on the glass. Here again, though, while Russell was given all kinds of help against Wilt, at the other end, he was defended solely by Chamberlain, and even then, Wilt was chasing his teammates all over the floor.

Once again, Wilt slaughtered Russell in game one. There is simply no question about it. However, Russell's teammates just OBLITERATED Wilt's (outscoring them by a 101-56 margin, and outshooting them .408 to unfathomable .235 margin.) Wilt scored 12 points in the first half, and then dominated Russell in the second half. He not only outscored him, 33-16, but he badly outshot him, 13-25 to 7-22.

And one more time, I have never read anything by Russell, that would ever suggest that he "let" Wilt score. That myth was created by a couple of his teammates, and there was never any evidence to suggest otherwise. And I have already provided a game in that same season, in Boston no less, in which Chamberlain engineered a fourth quarter comeback from a 21 point deficit, in a game in which he scored 48 points. BTW, he also led them to another 4th quarter comeback the very next night. Furthermore, in game two of the EDF's, he crushed Russell in the last five minutes, with 12 points, in leading his team back from a nine point deficit.

As for teammates. Again, you have to be kidding. Heinsohn, Cousy, Sam Jones, had considerably greater careers than Arizin, Gola, and Rodgers. And the reality was, in '62 Arizin was on his last legs. And his EDF's were an example of that, scoring 20.6 ppg, but on a putrid .309 FG%. In fact, in his last two playoff seasons, he shot .325 and .375. During the regular season, Heinsohn averaged 22.1 ppg to Arizin's 21.9 ppg, and shot .429 to Arizin's .410. He was already a better player in '62. Gola has no business being in an "NBA HOF", and in fact, has a case as the worst post-season shooter of all-time (.336.) And then add to that the fact that he was just a shell in that series, and he contributed virtually nothing in the series. And his last two post-seasons were even worse than Arizin's... .206 and .271 FG%'s! Rodgers vs Cousy? Not even close. Cousy won an MVP in his career, and had 10 seasons of 18 ppg, three of which were 20 ppg+.

And I have already mentioned Meschery. He was a one-time all-star, in a season in which he played 64 games, averaged 16 ppg and shot .425. Even in his '62 season, he only averaged 12.1 ppg on a .404 FG%, which substantiates my belief that he was left wide-open in the entire EDF's. And as well as he played, Boston's overall depth, with arguably the top two defenders at their respective positions, KC Jones and Satch Sanders, as well as Ramsey's offense off the bench, more than made up for his contributions.

Even Meschery, himself, admitted that, player-for-player, Boston was better. And the numbers don't lie, either.

The reality was, it was a MIRACLE that Chamberlain could take that roster, the bulk of which was a LAST-PLACE roster when he arrived, but now older and WORSE, to a game seven, two point loss against a MUCH better team. And again, THAT roster, excluding Wilt, shot .354 in the entire post-season, and a known .345 in the EDF's. Just pathetic. And then to be outrebounded, as well,...just incredible.

Swap rosters, and Wilt likely would have swept Russell.

[coin24]

Olden day mcgee

[LAZERUSS]

Olden day mcgee

Tragically, you probably really believe it, too.

[Stringer Bell]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=272740

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[LAZERUSS]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=272740

Let's blame Wilt's FT shooting....

ok

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .402 overall. Wilt shoots .496 in the playoffs. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .403 overall. Wilt shoots .469 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .411 overall. Wilt shoots .467 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .420 overall. Wilt shoots .543 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .429 overall. Wilt shoots .530. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .440 overall. Wilt shoots .509. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .424 overall. Wilt shoots .579. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .446 overall. Wilt shoots .534. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .431 overall. Wilt shoots .545. Lose game seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .455 overall. Wilt shoots .549. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .445 overall. Wilt shoots .455. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .446 overall. Wilt shoots .563. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .451 overall. Wilt shoots .552. Lose game five of Finals

Go ahead and give me your list of GOATs that won a title with their teammates shooting as poorly as Wilt's did, year-after-year. And please give me the MJ's, KAJ's Bird's, Hakeem's, Russell's, Shaq's, Duncan's, Kobe's, et al, who won titles with their teammates collectively shooting .057, .071, .088, below the post-season league average. Hell, Chamberlain won one title with his teammates collectively shooting .032 under the post-season league average.

But, yes, it was Wilt's FT shooting that cost him multiple rings, and not the shooting of his teammates.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's teammates in their last game of the playoffs, without Wilt's FG/FGAs...and his opposing team's, sans their starting center's FG/FGA's.

'60: Game six of the EDF's: 119-117 loss
Opposing teams (sans Russell): .409
Wilt's teammates (sans Wilt): .416
Russell: .423
Wilt: .440

'62 Game seven of the EDF's: 109-107 loss
Opposing teams (sans Russell): .374
Wilt's teammates: .365
Russell: .500
Wilt: .467

'64 Game five of the Finals: 105-99 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .435
Wilt's teammates: .338
Russell: .454
Wilt: .429

'65 Game seven of the EDF's: 110-109 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .396
Wilt's teammates: .373
Russell: .438
Wilt: .800

'66 Game five of the EDF's: 120-112 loss.
No known info, but Wilt's teammates collectively shot .352 in that series.
Russell: .545
Wilt: .559

'67 Game five of the EDF's: 140-116 win
Opposing team (sans Russell): .416
Wilt's teammates: .460
Russell: .400
Wilt: .625

'67 Game six of the Finals: 125-122 win
Opposing team (sans Thurmond): .460
Wilt's teammates: .400
Thurmond: .308
Wilt: .615

'68 Game seven of the EDF's: 100-96 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .462
Wilt's teammates: .343
Russell: .667
Wilt: .444

'69 Game seven of the Finals: 108-106 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .477
Wilt's teammates: .360
Russell: .286
Wilt: .875

'70 Game seven of the Finals: 113-99 loss
Opposing team (sans Reed): .506
Wilt's teammates: .418
Reed: .400
Wilt: .625

'72 Game five of the Finals: 114-100 win
Opposing team (minus Lucas): .425
Wilt's teammates: .388
Lucas: .357
Wilt: .714

'73 Game five of the Finals: 102-93 loss
Opposing team (sans Reed): .450
Wilt's teammates: .375
Reed: .563
Wilt: .563

[Real14]

Wilt had more heart than Lebron tho. FACT.

[Stringer Bell]

Wilt with good free throw shooting= 6 or 7 rings

Wilt in reality- 2 rings, the same amount as perennial first-round exit king Hakeem. Then again, Hakeem's scoring didn't go down 30% in the postseason like Wilt

Let's blame Wilt's FT shooting....

ok



Go ahead and give me your list of GOATs that won a title with their teammates shooting as poorly as Wilt's did, year-after-year. And please give me the MJ's, KAJ's Bird's, Hakeem's, Russell's, Shaq's, Duncan's, Kobe's, et al, who won titles with their teammates collectively shooting .057, .071, .088, below the post-season league average. Hell, Chamberlain won one title with his teammates collectively shooting .032 under the post-season league average.

But, yes, it was Wilt's FT shooting that cost him multiple rings, and not the shooting of his teammates.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt with good free throw shooting= 6 or 7 rings

Wilt in reality- 2 rings, the same amount as perennial first-round exit king Hakeem. Then again, Hakeem's scoring didn't go down 30% in the postseason like Wilt

How about this...

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-season career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.