Why is Kareem Abdul Jabbar so Underrated?

[SinJackal]

I have never seen a single person's GOAT list not have Kareem in their top 5. In fact, I have never seen him lower than #4 unless it involved a troll.

He's usually rated between 1-3 on almost every list I've seen, and rightfully so. The only players I see typically ranked above him are Michael Jordan and Bill Russel. Wilt is sometimes rated above him too, but not usually.

I would have to say, unless you think Kareem deserves to be ranked #1 all time, then he is not underrated at all. Only trolls or people who don't know who he was rate him any lower than 4-5.

[jbryan1984]

I think he is #1 all time center, and this is coming from a huge Shaq fan. Yep, better than Wilt too. But ya, when I talk to non basketball fans, he is never in the discussion but they usually have heard his name. Kareem played till what age 42? He still managed to make the all-star game his last year. Sure, in the 80's his game declined and he became #2 to Magic and maybe Worthy to but he could still go pretty good for his age. People forget he is the all time leading scorer, not Michael. I'm sure there are people out there who don't even understand that new commercial with Karl Malone

[G.O.A.T]

That is not true. Magic was the clear leader. Kareem was always a distant guy - hard to reach. Magic controlled pace, Magic waited for slow poke to get down court. Magic distributed the ball. Magic kept the team and Kareem focused. Magic was the definitve motor of the team. Magic was the emotional leader and the soul of the team.

Actually that's not accurate either.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Magic didn't take full control until the 1986-87 season when Riley sat down separately with he and Kareem and said it had to be Magic's show now. Prior to that according to both Magic and Riley in their most recent books discussing the topic, there was no definitive leader. It was Magic who the franchise was building around and for, but Kareem was too proud to concede leadership. It was Jabbar who stepped up and led the team after the game one blowout in the 1985 Finals.

[Pointguard]

Actually that's not accurate either.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Magic didn't take full control until the 1986-87 season when Riley sat down separately with he and Kareem and said it had to be Magic's show now. Prior to that according to both Magic and Riley in their most recent books discussing the topic, there was no definitive leader. It was Magic who the franchise was building around and for, but Kareem was too proud to concede leadership. It was Jabbar who stepped up and led the team after the game one blowout in the 1985 Finals.

Showtime was Magic time.

I'm not talking about what was said... . Things were continuously said to pacify Kareem. Because of the kid gloves thing it seems like a dubious thing (the leadership issue) when you read about it but when you see it, it isn't a question. Kareen always was and is a distant guy. The guy threw a hissy fit when Magic went in the center position and turned out a game he couldn't equal. Who does that to a rookie?

Magic entered the league like thunder. It was the first time you heard that the point guard is the head of the team, the main chess piece and tempo king. Bird and Magic had taken over, the center position was no longer the main keg on a team.

Magic comes along and all of sudden Kareem has a new bounce in his step. The game comes along easy for him for the first time in his career. He didn't even get slack for rebounds cause Magic was a good rebounder. Kareem had it easy and that's the way he preferred it. Magic would feature him when a newbie center came along. Magic had no trouble feeding the post. Kareem only had Wilkes on his side. The rest of the team wanted to be where Magic told them to go on the floor. Magic was the only guy on that team that could run a reward system. Magic would feature guys for their Birthdays or if their father was in the audience. Do you really think Kareem could feature Kurt Rambis in the offense. Riley didn't even know how to do that.

Pat Riley knew, like all who seen Kareem, that he could sulk and loose focus. He didn't want to rebound, he didn't like to hustle. You can't be serious and tell me that he was the example and lead. He had trouble motivating himself much less other people that he seemingly didn't like. Or better yet he didn't like people.

[G.O.A.T]

Showtime was Magic time.

I'm not talking about what was said... . Things were continuously said to pacify Kareem. Because of the kid gloves thing it seems like a dubious thing (the leadership issue) when you read about it but when you see it, it isn't a question. Kareen always was and is a distant guy. The guy threw a hissy fit when Magic went in the center position and turned out a game he couldn't equal. Who does that to a rookie?

Magic entered the league like thunder. It was the first time you heard that the point guard is the head of the team, the main chess piece and tempo king. Bird and Magic had taken over, the center position was no longer the main keg on a team.

Magic comes along and all of sudden Kareem has a new bounce in his step. The game comes along easy for him for the first time in his career. He didn't even get slack for rebounds cause Magic was a good rebounder. Kareem had it easy and that's the way he preferred it. Magic would feature him when a newbie center came along. Magic had no trouble feeding the post. Kareem only had Wilkes on his side. The rest of the team wanted to be where Magic told them to go on the floor. Magic was the only guy on that team that could run a reward system. Magic would feature guys for their Birthdays or if their father was in the audience. Do you really think Kareem could feature Kurt Rambis in the offense. Riley didn't even know how to do that.

Pat Riley knew, like all who seen Kareem, that he could sulk and loose focus. He didn't want to rebound, he didn't like to hustle. You can't be serious and tell me that he was the example and lead. He had trouble motivating himself much less other people that he seemingly didn't like. Or better yet he didn't like people.

We pretty much agree on Kareem, but there are some factors you're not considering.

1. The Laker veterans like Wilkes and Nixon favored Kareem and didn't listen to Magic very much, he was young and brash and they resented his relationship with Jerry Buss. Before '87 Kareem never fell in line either. Like you said, they still had to pacify him.

2. Magic had the yips in the '84 Finals and that sort of made him doubt himself a bit. He was on a mission in 1985 to redeem himself and it seemed like it was becoming his team. Then the Finals role around, Boston crushes LA in game one and it's Kareem who becomes vocal and assertive, moving to the front row and chiming in during film sessions instead of daydreaming in the back like usual. Then he backed it up on the court leading them to four wins in five games and the Finals MVP.

So it's more complicated than just "Magic was a better leader so he was the leader."

It was his team in terms of the direction of the offense and the image, but Kareem was still the top dog, or at least allowed to operate as such.

[Pointguard]

We pretty much agree on Kareem, but there are some factors you're not considering.

1. The Laker veterans like Wilkes and Nixon favored Kareem and didn't listen to Magic very much, he was young and brash and they resented his relationship with Jerry Buss. Before '87 Kareem never fell in line either. Like you said, they still had to pacify him.

2. Magic had the yips in the '84 Finals and that sort of made him doubt himself a bit. He was on a mission in 1985 to redeem himself and it seemed like it was becoming his team. Then the Finals role around, Boston crushes LA in game one and it's Kareem who becomes vocal and assertive, moving to the front row and chiming in during film sessions instead of daydreaming in the back like usual. Then he backed it up on the court leading them to four wins in five games and the Finals MVP.

So it's more complicated than just "Magic was a better leader so he was the leader."

It was his team in terms of the direction of the offense and the image, but Kareem was still the top dog, or at least allowed to operate as such.

Well we knew Nixon would be on the Kareem side for obvious reason - and couple that with his marriage to Actress Debbie Allen. Wilkes still thought he was a movie star and despite Magic bringing his FG% up 50 points he becomes a Kareem ingrate... . LOL, at the way you described Kareem's moving up to the front of the film sessions... I know Kareem could have been GOAT but this is kind of typical of his behavior... Because a guy got more attention than him it made him do simple things like this... . to the point where he was probably choking on popcorn talking about things irrelevant to the film.ROFL.

When Kareem was retiring Magic told teams beforehand that "teams were dogging the gifts to Kareem... Please up the ante" All of a sudden Kareem was getting cars and what not. Of course Kareem being the embodiment of class, never thanks Magic. Quite a character! Like I deserve this!!! and Magic should be my PR man. WTH.

Nonetheless he was a steady mule on a team of race horses. If he worked like Russell and Chamberlain he's GOAT. But he didn't... .

[HBKMGa]

KAJ's appearance on that shoe commercial with Karl Malone is underrated.

[G.O.A.T]

Well we knew Nixon would be on the Kareem side for obvious reason - and couple that with his marriage to Actress Debbie Allen. Wilkes still thought he was a movie star and despite Magic bringing his FG% up 50 points he becomes a Kareem ingrate...

Rather or not it's right it happened. The Lakers couldn't have won those first three titles without both Kareem and Magic. Again, I want to emphasize I DO NOT disagree with your assessment of Kareem's character or effort relative to his potential, but just like the Kareem side that dismisses Magic being the clear cut choice of the organization and the media to lead the team and as it's best player, it wasn't that simple.

On the Celtics even the guys that didn't like Bird understood it was his team. Same goes for Isiah on the Pistons...try and picture someone doing what John Salley did as the Pistons were locking up the title and approaching Magic or Kareem and saying "You made this shit happen".

All I am asking is that you be completely fair. It was not a clear cut Magic show. Kareem was the number one option in the half court and in the clutch through 1986. The team didn't have one voice leading it and perhaps that's why the "only" won five titles in the decade.

LOL, at the way you described Kareem's moving up to the front of the film sessions... I know Kareem could have been GOAT but this is kind of typical of his behavior... Because a guy got more attention than him it made him do simple things like this... . to the point where he was probably choking on popcorn talking about things irrelevant to the film.ROFL.

First...lol and rofl, I'd expect better from you. Surprised you didn't use the smiley.

How about reading up on the topic. Kareem turned the 1985 Finals around with his attitude. The guy understood the game and how to play it, he was just too lazy, unmotivated, apathetic to apply himself in that area with any consistency. But when he did for those Finals, the Lakers were as good as they ever were. Give credit where credit is do, don't belike one of those Kareem guys who says he was the real finals MVP in 1980 and it's not debatable.

When Kareem was retiring Magic told teams beforehand that "teams were dogging the gifts to Kareem... Please up the ante" All of a sudden Kareem was getting cars and what not. Of course Kareem being the embodiment of class, never thanks Magic. Quite a character! Like I deserve this!!! and Magic should be my PR man. WTH.

That whole thing was ridiculous. You'll get no argument from me. Kareem also went to Magic after their careers were over and asked for advice on how to make himself more marketable and likable like Magic. Imagine the laugh Erv must have had to himself later.

Nonetheless he was a steady mule on a team of race horses. If he worked like Russell and Chamberlain he's GOAT. But he didn't... .

We have no disagreement yet again. Jabbar had the almost the physical prowess of Wilt, almost the intelligence of Russell and was more skilled and refined than either in basketball; peaked in a much weaker era and never even came close to winning a title without one of the two greatest point guards ever playing beside him. (Though to be fair, Oscar was not Oscar in 1974)

There has never been a player who had elite, skill, size, athleticism, intelligence and killer instinct. Kareem has four out of the five, which proves you can't teach the fifth.

[Niquesports]

Well we knew Nixon would be on the Kareem side for obvious reason - and couple that with his marriage to Actress Debbie Allen. Wilkes still thought he was a movie star and despite Magic bringing his FG% up 50 points he becomes a Kareem ingrate... . LOL, at the way you described Kareem's moving up to the front of the film sessions... I know Kareem could have been GOAT but this is kind of typical of his behavior... Because a guy got more attention than him it made him do simple things like this... . to the point where he was probably choking on popcorn talking about things irrelevant to the film.ROFL.

When Kareem was retiring Magic told teams beforehand that "teams were dogging the gifts to Kareem... Please up the ante" All of a sudden Kareem was getting cars and what not. Of course Kareem being the embodiment of class, never thanks Magic. Quite a character! Like I deserve this!!! and Magic should be my PR man. WTH.


.

Kareem was a unique personality. his game was so skilled and so dominant people expected him to have WIlt like numbers. However coming from the greatest coach to ever coach the game John Wooden Kareem had a better grasp of team basketball.Media and fans alike thought Kareem should have been putting up Wilt like numbers. IT wasnt so much that he could couldnt as much as them type of numbers just werent part of Kareem game. HE always played the secondary role which is one of the reasons his Lakers team pre- Magic fell short so many years. Sure he would get his points and was the best Center but people expected so much more from him.Also no one is talking about the dislike for Kareem after his conversion to Islam. Take that and his layed back personality the media never gave him the or maybe it was part his fault also he just didnt have the personality that say a Shaq has or the style of a Jordan.Anyone that doesnt think the media has an influence of the legeacy of players just put a post who's better Elvin Hayes or Kevin Mchale, Oscar Robinson or Jerry West, or Rick Barry or Charles Barkley. In all 3 cases any non bias person would take the first person over the second in each case however media influence has been kind to some and bad to others Kareem happens to be hurt by this.
This being said Kareem still being mentioned in the Top 5 of most really shows how great he really was.

[Pointguard]

Rather or not it's right it happened. The Lakers couldn't have won those first three titles without both Kareem and Magic. Again, I want to emphasize I DO NOT disagree with your assessment of Kareem's character or effort relative to his potential, but just like the Kareem side that dismisses Magic being the clear cut choice of the organization and the media to lead the team and as it's best player, it wasn't that simple.

We are in accord here.

All I am asking is that you be completely fair. It was not a clear cut Magic show. Kareem was the number one option in the half court and in the clutch through 1986. The team didn't have one voice leading it and perhaps that's why the "only" won five titles in the decade.

Yes, I agree there was some discord there and it most definitely cost them a title or two. I know Magic was making a lot of adjustments on and off the court. I know Jabbar moved up closer to the screen and probably pointed out when he didn't get the ball despite the session being about Malone getting 25 bounds. /

How about reading up on the topic. Kareem turned the 1985 Finals around with his attitude. The guy understood the game and how to play it, he was just too lazy, unmotivated, apathetic to apply himself in that area with any consistency. But when he did for those Finals, the Lakers were as good as they ever were. Give credit where credit is do, don't belike one of those Kareem guys who says he was the real finals MVP in 1980 and it's not debatable.

LOL, stop trying to imply I don't read or that I'm the KAJ of reading! There isn't that much to read on this topic. I agree with most of what you said above. Kareem was definitely better than Magic in a series or two and in large spurts during their time together - like you said in '85. It wasn't that simple to say who was the best or who might have been rallying the troops at all times.

But certain aspects are right there in front of us: Kareem before Magic had motivation issues, focus issues, people issues, leadership issues, hustle issues. Those things subside when Magic appears. The team around Kareem is motivated and for once all on the same page and very much buying into what Magic is leading. Kareem is featured and very much the center - but he isn't the brain, the motor, the gas or the steering wheel. He does make it a luxury car, he is the comfort and the seat (center) of the car tho. And still a heavyweight champion. He was dang good.

That whole thing was ridiculous. You'll get no argument from me. Kareem also went to Magic after their careers were over and asked for advice on how to make himself more marketable and likable like Magic. Imagine the laugh Erv must have had to himself later.

LOL, you ever work with someone who just seems oblivious to a reality only ten minutes before. "Psycho, didn't I just tell you that you aren't competing with me, I'm your boss!!!"

I think we agree on the matter. At times Kareem was the man. I think in general he was a changed man due to Magic's arrival. I think Magic was who he was the whole time. Flawed and not always up to leading but in general a leader. He always played his brand of ball which incorporated involving everybody.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was a unique personality. his game was so skilled and so dominant people expected him to have WIlt like numbers. However coming from the greatest coach to ever coach the game John Wooden Kareem had a better grasp of team basketball.Media and fans alike thought Kareem should have been putting up Wilt like numbers. IT wasnt so much that he could couldnt as much as them type of numbers just werent part of Kareem game. HE always played the secondary role which is one of the reasons his Lakers team pre- Magic fell short so many years. Sure he would get his points and was the best Center but people expected so much more from him.Also no one is talking about the dislike for Kareem after his conversion to Islam. Take that and his layed back personality the media never gave him the or maybe it was part his fault also he just didnt have the personality that say a Shaq has or the style of a Jordan.Anyone that doesnt think the media has an influence of the legeacy of players just put a post who's better Elvin Hayes or Kevin Mchale, Oscar Robinson or Jerry West, or Rick Barry or Charles Barkley. In all 3 cases any non bias person would take the first person over the second in each case however media influence has been kind to some and bad to others Kareem happens to be hurt by this.
This being said Kareem still being mentioned in the Top 5 of most really shows how great he really was.

Yes being top five isn't a slight by any means. And yeah he got some bad press just as Ali did for his conversion. I do think he had GOAT within his reach and him not being GOAT isn't related to bad press.

Like the current point guard situation where you have so many great points its just a matter of what aspect you are looking for to say who is best, I don't argue with people rotating three GOAT spots - all depending on what you are looking for. I have Jordan down because he was elite in nearly every level you can think of that measures greatness. I have Chamberlain down for Great feats and greatness speaks in the language he wrote. Russell down for winning at the highest level, killer instinct and defensive play. I think Magic and Kareem fill out the top five.

[shootingcomets]

top 5 player of all time... not underrated

[ThaRegul8r]

The notion that Russell is lucky is absurd.

The Celtics never even made it to the Finals before Russell, won 11 titles in his 13 years and finished in last place for two straight season after he retired.

Who was lucky? Russell? or the Celtics?

(The answer is the Celtics, just ask them)

Every single Celtic to a man who has been asked about it is on record as giving the same answer, yet people decades later who know absolutely nothing about the era nor has bothered to do any actual research say different than the people who were actually there and played both with and against him night in and night out for years. I wonder who's more reliable?

[ThaRegul8r]

Some people may not like these choices or they may want to move them around to suit their taste but this is how i rank them.

1.Jordan
2.Bird
3.KAJ
4.Wilt
5.Hakeem
6.Dunkan
7.Shaq
8.Kobe
9.Magic
10.O.Robinson/Russell

Fail at not even being able to get his name right. I swear, I have no clue why so many people have problems with it.

[BlackJordan]

Hes not?