Reasons Why Difficulty of Scoring (League-Wide Ortg) is Relatively Constant Over Time

[3ball]

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A defense that guards all two-pointers and is allowed to camp in the lane will produce an environment in which it is equally as hard to score as an environment where the defense must guard 3-pointers, can't camp in the lane, but uses additional strategy/scrambling schemes to compensate.

So when people say today's defenses are "better", what they really mean is that today's defenses have to do more things, such as guard the 3-point line while abiding by defensive 3 seconds, which are things accomplished by using extra strategy.... But the extra strategy only maintains the same level of effectiveness as before when the strategy wasn't needed because they COULD camp in the lane and didn't have guard the 3-point line. *

So defenses in previous eras weren't missing out on some modern tactic that could have helped them - for example, previous eras didn't need the strong-side flood because that tactic was only invented to cover extra ground created by 3-point shooting and to maintain rotational capability in the face of the new defensive 3 seconds paint restriction.. The invention of scrambling schemes like the strong side flood demonstrate that defenses are fluid and adjust over time to playing style and regulatory changes in the game by doing whatever is necessary and possible to get stops - the top defenses generally don't miss anything that they could be doing.

The fluid nature of defenses is the reason behind the long-term stability in league-wide offensive rating (Ortg) - the stat measuring how hard it is to score... Ortg in the last 10 years has been at the same levels as it was in the 80's, showing that the difficulty of scoring has remained relatively stable over time.
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[ralph_i_el]

those gifs Obviously the D is going to be packing the lane when all off ball offensive players are standing under the basket. Illegal D rules wouldn't even come into play in those situations.

We get it dude:
-Rules benefit perimeter players today, but perimeter players aren't as good
-There are no good bigs today
-Teams play worse D today
-Every aspect of basketball was better in the 90's
If today's basketball sucks so much why would you watch it?



being real, you CAN occupy the paint more today than you could in the past. The 3 second rule means nothing. You have to step a foot out of the paint every 3 seconds which is seriously nothing. Illegal D meant you could camp guys who couldn't shoot out behind the 3 point line and you couldn't just leave them like today Don Nelson used to camp his center 30ft from the basket on O just so the other team would have to keep the big defending him away from the paint. The 3 second rule is just to prevent sitting your center in the paint the entire offensive possession if the other team has 1 big who can't shoot.


Without 3 second rule the only difference is you'd have to play 5 shooters instead of 4 (like we have currently) at all times to run a decent offense.

[dubeta]

Dude MJ played in a weak era just admit it and move on

[3ball]

Dude MJ played in a weak era just admit it and move on

He played in an era that didn't use today's scheming to combat floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds... because there WAS no floor-spacing or defensive 3 seconds!!!!!!

Today's scheming wasn't needed because as you can see above, being able to camp in the paint indefinitely actually defends 2-pointers better than NOT being able to camp in the paint, and having to use extra scheming to compensate.

[ralph_i_el]

He played in an era that didn't use today's scheming to combat floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds... because there WAS no floor-spacing or defensive 3 seconds!!!!!!

Today's scheming wasn't needed because as you can see above, being able to camp in the paint indefinitely actually defends 2-pointers better than NOT being able to camp in the paint, and having to use extra scheming to compensate.

you couldn't camp the paint indefinitely if the offensive players moved away from the paint. 2 gifs won't change this. You can be in the paint more often today than in the past. Today it's up to the D when and for how long they want to stay around the paint. In the past the rules regarding where the defense could play were dependent on the offense.

If all the offensive players are in/near the paint (as per your gifs) OBVIOUSLY the entire D will be in the paint too. WHERE THE **** ELSE WOULD THEY STAND? Today if you wanted to drop 5 guys in the paint you could do it AT ANY TIME. They just all need to tap a foot out of the paint every 3 seconds. When you see a team put in a mediocre shooting lineup, you see the D clustered around the paint, every defender ready to commit to the paint. That's why outside shooting is so important today. Nothing is forcing the D to stay out on shooters except for the fact that those shooters are going to drop a 3 on them if they don't.

[dubeta]

3ball goes to Euroleague lengths to defend MJ, just

[ImKobe]

OP wants us to think this is how they scored every point

[navy]

OP wants us to think this is how they scored every point

It's quite hilarious really.

[3ball]

OP wants us to think this is how they scored every point

Those GIF's are just examples to show what the paint looked like in previous eras for those who weren't already aware that players were allowed to occupy the paint indefinitely in previous eras because there was no defensive 3 seconds.

Previous eras didn't use today's advanced scheming to combat floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds... because there WAS no floor-spacing or defensive 3 seconds!!!!!!

Being able to camp in the paint indefinitely actually defends 2-pointers better than NOT being able to camp in the paint, and having to use extra scheming to compensate.

[Lebron23]

Op is probably Bruceblitz.

[bdreason]

As defensive strategies adjust/improve, the league continues to create new rules to make scoring the ball easier.

[3ball]

As defensive strategies adjust/improve, the league continues to create new rules to make scoring the ball easier.

Indeed - NBA defenses are fluid things that adjust to changing playing style and regulatory environments - I just posted over the original OP with this:

League-wide offensive rating has remained relatively stable over the years showing that it is just as hard to score in one era as it is in another... This is because historically, defenses have had various built-in advantages that helped a defense play well, and even when these things were taken away, defenses still remained effective by compensating through the use of more strategy.

For example, in previous eras, the 3-point shot wasn't used so defenses didn't have to deal with floor-spacing.. Additionally, defenders were allowed to camp in the paint indefinitely... However, when defenses had to start guarding the 3-pointer, and when the NBA instituted the defensive 3 seconds rule so defenses couldn't camp in the paint anymore, new strategies such as the strong-side flood were invented so defenders could cover the extra ground.

In the end, the stripping of various built-in defensive advantages was effectively offset by a higher level of strategy so defensive effectiveness could be maintained... And it was maintained - camping in the paint is just as effective at guarding two-pointers as NOT being allowed to camp in the paint and using additional strategy to compensate... Steady Ortg over the eras reflects this.

Contrary to popular belief, good defenses don't miss out on implementing anything that would help them better defend the offenses they face (i.e. previous eras only needed the strong-side flood when they weren't permitted to camp in the paint anymore).. Empirical evidence has shown defenses to be fluid things that adjust to changing playing-style and regulatory environments over time.. This fluid nature of NBA defenses has been the driver for a steady league-wide Ortg over time.

[Dr.J4ever]

Those GIF's are just examples to show what the paint looked like in previous eras for those who weren't already aware that players were allowed to occupy the paint indefinitely in previous eras because there was no defensive 3 seconds.

Previous eras didn't use today's advanced scheming to combat floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds... because there WAS no floor-spacing or defensive 3 seconds!!!!!!

Being able to camp in the paint indefinitely actually defends 2-pointers better than NOT being able to camp in the paint, and having to use extra scheming to compensate.

WTH are you talking about? Didn't you understand what Ralph was telling you?

In previous eras you COULDN'T stay in the lane at ALL unless you were guarding a man. Period. You COULDN'T guard an area of the court or stay in the shaded lane for even 2 seconds unless you were guarding a man. This would be an illegal zone defense and result in a warning, and then a free throw with possession. You could, however, double team a player with the ball or guard a man or APPEAR to be guarding a man.

While the illegal zone defense has evolved over the NBA years, and I don't want to speak about the 60s or 70s, the 80s rules were very clear on this. During Erving's heyday in Philly, once Coach Billy C. saw that the other team was playing an illegal zone defense, he would expose it by instructing the 76er players to spread the court, and defenders were OBLIGATED to follow even inferior shooters. This would NOT be possible today. Defenders are no longer obligated to follow shooters out in the perimeter.

Billy C. would do this to isolate Erving and let him go one on one. Now, once Erving makes his move to the lane, a 2nd defender can rush in to help out, but in today's NBA, isos are easier to defend. This was the intent of the rule, after all.

As Ralph pointed out, if all the offensive players are straddling the shaded area like in your GIF, then of course defenders would be around that area too. The 80s rules applied in the 90s as well. The 2002 defensive 3 second rule allowed zones to be played anywhere in the court. This means you DON'T HAVE TO BE GUARDING ANYONE, AND JUST GUARDING AN AREA OF THE COURT WAS NOW ALLOWED. The only restriction is you couldn't stay in the lane for more than 3 seconds UNLESS you are within arm's length of a player.

I hope this clears it up for you.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If you're gonna make a thread like this, at least understand said rules you're debating

[3ball]

In previous eras you COULDN'T stay in the lane at ALL unless you were guarding a man Period. You COULDN'T guard an area of the court or stay in the shaded lane for even 2 seconds unless you were guarding a man.

You could, however, double team a player with the ball or guard a man or APPEAR to be guarding a man.

So how is that different from defensive 3 seconds?.. You can play a 2-second zone in the paint today, and you could play a 2-second zone in the paint in previous eras.

Not only that, but in previous eras, the "APPEAR to be guarding" language allows refs to give players a lot of latitude... It was standard for defenders to stay in the lane as long as they wanted, as long as they "appeared to be guarding" someone.

Defenders are no longer obligated to follow shooters out in the perimeter.

Once again, what's the difference with today's game?.. You can't stand in the paint if your man is at the 3-point line in today's game either.

And once again, due to the "appear to be guarding" language in the old rulebook, there was a lot of legal latitude back then for allowing anyone in the paint for as long as they wanted, as long as they "appeared to be guarding" someone - that's standard man-to-man.

That is a lot better than today, where you can only be in there for 3 seconds before you have to tippy-toe out of there.

Also, maybe most importantly, you have to remember that players only took 5 three-pointers per game in 1988... compared to 22 per game today... So players back then weren't at the three-point line to begin with - everyone was in the paint and mid-range areas (the two-point areas), which made it very easy for defenders to crowd the paint and legally stay there, because their man was invariably around there as well.

As Ralph pointed out, if all the offensive players are straddling the shaded area like in your GIF, then of course defenders would be around that area too.

See, again, that's why I posted the GIF's for you - they were for people that didn't know how the games looked back then and how the absence of defensive 3 seconds caused the paints to be perpetually packed..

Since the 3-point shot wasn't used, all the offensive players routinely straddled the shaded area - all two-pointers means most shots are taken either in the paint or mid-range area, so naturally, that is where all offensive players would be, and the defenders as well.

This natural congregation of players coupled with the LACK of defensive 3 seconds fostered a very congested environment that is a stark contrast to today's floor-spacing (3-point shooting) and resulting wide open paint.

The only restriction is you couldn't stay in the lane for more than 3 seconds UNLESS you are within arm's length of a player.

Once again, this is not as good as being able stay in the paint as long as you want as long as you "appear to be guarding" someone.
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