Prime Carmelo Anthony vs. Prime Bernard King

[Xiao Yao You]

Nique was great, hell an icon in my book. He was much more than a great player. He helped the NBA put a lot of asses in the seat and ratings wise. Nique was box office, the shining box office star of the Southeast. This was before the Heat, Charlotte, and Orlando came around. Nique on TBS was all the Southeast had for a long time. He redefined the SF position and athletic ability in the L. If u look at the freak athlete SF who was an alpha dog scoring machine, the tree went like this:

Baylor
Hawkins
Erving
Wilkins

After that u had guys like Bron come along. But Nique has a firm place in that group. The other SF's like King, English, Aguirre, Dantley, and Kiki while great didn't redefine the SF position in the manner that Wilkins did. Larry Bird said himself that he, MJ, King, and Wilkins were on another level when it came to perimeter scorers during that time. And I feel Bird was right, even though u had many SG's and SF's who were awesome, legendary scorers. I feel Bird's two greatest rivals at SF turned out to be Dr. J and Dominique. King would have been in there as well if not for injuries. But Bird and Nique actually had the longest most enduring rivalry at the SF spot in that particular era.

And u mention Theus and Moses on that Hawks team. They didn't keep that Hawks team together long enough. But Nique led many of those Hawks teams to 50+ win seasons. And the East was loaded with Boston, Detroit, Milwaukee, and later Chicago. Nique NEVER had the consistent firepower that those teams had.

Bird was wrong. He and MJ were on another level. King and Wilkens were high scoring SF's like the others. With his skills he should have done a lot more. He was an underachiever that didn't live up to the hype. I was more impressed with him at the end with SA. He was still athletic but he was playing D and the little things he never did in Atlanta.

[bizil]

Bird was wrong. He and MJ were on another level. King and Wilkens were high scoring SF's like the others. With his skills he should have done a lot more. He was an underachiever that didn't live up to the hype. I was more impressed with him at the end with SA. He was still athletic but he was playing D and the little things he never did in Atlanta.

As total players Bird and MJ were on another level than King and Bird. But as far as scoring machines, the gap between the four was A LOT SMALLER! I remember on those Come Fly with Me tapes with MJ where he said the TOP PLAYER he got up to play against was Nique. The reason why is because Nique was his rival in terms of being an unstoppable freak athlete scoring machine.

And what do u mean Nique underachieved? Hell he OVERACHIEVED with that Hawks team in the 80's! And u are what your skillset says u are often times. Just because he wasn't a great defender or great passer DOESN'T mean he was lazy or underachieved. If anything, I think Nique expended so much energy on offense that he was less effective on defense. Guys like MJ could balance the two better and MJ was an elite defender to begin with. And every player DOESN'T have point forward skills or is a great passer. Once it again it doesn't mean Nique underachieved it's just that those skills weren't his strengths.

An underachiever is letting your body get out of control. Or letting a drug habit totally ruin your career. Or being a knucklehead with horrible shot selection. Or not using your great strengths to its fullest and being lazy. Nique was none of those things. He was a great scorer and very good-great rebounder for a SF. It just so happened that passing and defense weren't his strong suits. Just like Magic and Larry's one on one defense weren't their strong suits. Or scoring wasn't Rodman's strong suit.

[bizil]

Bird was wrong. He and MJ were on another level. King and Wilkens were high scoring SF's like the others. With his skills he should have done a lot more. He was an underachiever that didn't live up to the hype. I was more impressed with him at the end with SA. He was still athletic but he was playing D and the little things he never did in Atlanta.

And the Hawks traded Nique when he had his best shot for a ring. The Hawks were number one in the East. Nique at 34 years old was still a great player and a top 2-3 SF in the L. They traded Nique for a "so called" better all around player in Manning. And look what happened the Hawks got bounced early. But Nique in my book had a very good chance at a ring against the Rockets. But Nique getting that team to the Finals would have done some great things for his legacy. How could u be more impressed with Nique in SA than in ATL. Nique was 37 years old, coming off the bench, and outta of his prime. But he was still very good and put up 18 points playing often times outta position at PF. As impressive as it was, Nique really started hitting his stride in the all around sense in his early 30's during the early 90's. Plus u gotta give Nique credit for coming back strong from that Achilles injury. The hate Nique gets is baffling to me!!!

[Xiao Yao You]

As total players Bird and MJ were on another level than King and Bird. But as far as scoring machines, the gap between the four was A LOT SMALLER!

But A.D. and English were right there with Dominique and King as scoring machines. Just because they didn't do it as flashy or on the NY stage doesn't make it any less impressive.

And the Hawks traded Nique when he had his best shot for a ring. The Hawks were number one in the East.

I would have traded him long before that. He wasn't taking them anywhere.

How could u be more impressed with Nique in SA than in ATL.

Because I wasn't ever that impressed with him hopping around the court in the first place.

[bizil]

But A.D. and English were right there with Dominique and King as scoring machines. Just because they didn't do it as flashy or on the NY stage doesn't make it any less impressive.



I would have traded him long before that. He wasn't taking them anywhere.



Because I wasn't ever that impressed with him hopping around the court in the first place.

For one the great Larry Bird said he, MJ, Nique, and King were on another level from other scorers of that era, not me. Bird forgot more about bball than we will ever know so I will take his word for it. I never doubted English or Dantley at all. But I feel the way MJ, Bird, King, and Nique scored revolutionized their positions in the scoring aspects. English and Dantley weren't as explosive on the baseline as King and Nique. They didn't have the three point range or the size of Bird. Slashing wise, Nique and King are two of the greatest SF's of all time in that regard as well. Dantley and English could score in a multitude of ways, but Bird, Nique, and King either had superior size or superior explosiveness that set them apart.

U can't teach size or explosiveness. Those are the facets that Bird (size), MJ, Nique, and King (explosiveness) brought to the table. And the combined it with their great scoring skillsets. But frankly, I always considered Dantley, English, Aguirre, Bird, Nique, Kiki, and even Worthy great alpha dog level scorers. How u would rank them can be like splitting straws. But I do feel that Bird, King, Nique, and Worthy had a little something more special due to factors like size and explosiveness.

[bizil]

But A.D. and English were right there with Dominique and King as scoring machines. Just because they didn't do it as flashy or on the NY stage doesn't make it any less impressive.



I would have traded him long before that. He wasn't taking them anywhere.



Because I wasn't ever that impressed with him hopping around the court in the first place.

Nique was MUCH MORE THAN HOPPING AROUND THE COURT! In the 80's NBA, u would get put on your ass for trying to dunk ALL of the time. Sure Nique got his share of dunks. But in order to be the career leader in total points in NBA history at the SF, Nique HAD to do more than just dunk on people. I say without hesitation that Nique was:

The most explosive scorer in terms of athletic ability EVER at the SF

Had one of the most deadly bankshots EVER at SF

Had one of the greatest array of floaters and finger rolls EVER at the SF

Had one of the premier postup games EVER at the SF

And in terms of the freak athlete scoring alpha dogs at SF (Baylor, Hawkins, Dr.J, Bron, etc) he had THE MOST COMPLETE SCORING SKILLSET EVER!

And on top of it, Nique developed a very good midrange jumper. So Nique was much more than just hopping around on the court. The fact the he's the highest scoring SF of NBA history for career points (and only 2nd to Dr. J for ABA-NBA) says a lot. Kareem is the man at center for that. At the PF its Malone. At SG its MJ. And PG its Big O. That's the company Nique is in!

[04mzwach]

I have today's Melo over just about any past player for 1V1.

[Xiao Yao You]

For one the great Larry Bird said he, MJ, Nique, and King were on another level from other scorers of that era, not me.

Bird wasn't that big of a scorer. It was his overall game that set him apart.

English and Dantley weren't as explosive on the baseline as King and Nique. They didn't have the three point range or the size of Bird. Slashing wise, Nique and King are two of the greatest SF's of all time in that regard as well. Dantley and English could score in a multitude of ways, but Bird, Nique, and King either had superior size or superior explosiveness that set them apart.

None of them post up or get to the line like A.D. He could also slash to the hole and hit the outside shot. English could also slash and shoot. Wilkens was a great scorer not one of the great players.

I do feel that Bird, King, Nique, and Worthy had a little something more special due to factors like size and explosiveness.

Worthy too was overrated. He was on the right team at the right time.

Funny thing is A.D. played ahead of King in Utah for a short while before King committed sexual assault. The Jazz also dealt Wilkens more because of the million dollars they got kept them in town than because of AD though.

Wilkens was the Carmelo of his day.

[Xiao Yao You]

Nique was MUCH MORE THAN HOPPING AROUND THE COURT!

Agreed. He developed a nice all-around scoring set but his hopping is what got him all the hype and he wasn't up with the best players of his day which is why he's not talked about as one of the greats anymore. Same will happen to Carmelo. Should be already! What more do people need to see to realize Carmelo isn't one of the games greats?

That's the company Nique is in!

Again as far as I saw it he's in the company with the other high scoring small forwards not the all-time great players.

[bizil]

Agreed. He developed a nice all-around scoring set but his hopping is what got him all the hype and he wasn't up with the best players of his day which is why he's not talked about as one of the greats anymore. Same will happen to Carmelo. Should be already! What more do people need to see to realize Carmelo isn't one of the games greats?



Again as far as I saw it he's in the company with the other high scoring small forwards not the all-time great players.

Nique is an all time great player that can be ranked in that 30-40 range GOAT wise. He's firmly entrenched in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever and in the HOF. So how can u say that Nique isn't an all time great? U don't have to be rated in the top 10 GOAT to be an all time great. If u are worthy of HOF status, then u are an all time great flat out!

Secondly, I never said Dantley and English didn't have great scoring skillsets. What I said was King, Bird, Worthy, and Wilkins had certain attributes like size, athletic ablity, or explosiveness that made their skillsets somewhat more devastating to me. Worthy was truly an alpha dog type player. But he played on deep ass teams that featured two of the top 5-6 GOAT. And he played with guys like McAdoo, Scott, Wilkes, etc. From a scoring talent standpoint, those Lakers teams are amongst the best of all time.

Put Worthy on a team where he had to be the guy scoring the rock, and u will get clutch, takeover scoring at a 25-27 point clip. I'm truly convinced by that. By the time Magic retired the first time, Worthy's body was already beat up to the point where he couldn't show what he could do. He was still an All Star caliber SF, but was more of a pure second option type. Worthy's body started breaking down relatively young while Magic was still going strong and in his prime that year vs. the Bulls in the Finals.

[knickswin]

i want melo to emulate king. the game is different now, but in some ways it's kind of the perfect time for a power three. a lot of the centers are defensive. a lot of the power forwards are stretch fours. perfect time for a forward to play like a big man.

king was a more explosive scorer and had such an incredibly quick release that it was hard for him to hurt the team's offense. melo is a better rebounder and probably a better passer too.

[SacJB Shady]

Does carmelo anthony knows that he sucks at basketball? does he even know that?

[Xiao Yao You]

Nique is an all time great player that can be ranked in that 30-40 range GOAT wise. He's firmly entrenched in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever and in the HOF. So how can u say that Nique isn't an all time great? U don't have to be rated in the top 10 GOAT to be an all time great. If u are worthy of HOF status, then u are an all time great flat out!

Guess it depends on what you view as an all-time great. There are special players that stand out above the rest and than there are guys like Wilkens that are in a large group of high scoring small forwards that you take your pick from depending on your preference. Hopping around the court didn't impress me as much as a lot of other guys that got similar results without the hype.

I never said Dantley and English didn't have great scoring skillsets. What I said was King, Bird, Worthy, and Wilkins had certain attributes like size, athletic ablity, or explosiveness that made their skillsets somewhat more devastating to me.

None of those guys are in Bird's league. Worthy isn't in the group of great high scoring small forwards that King and Wilkens are either.

Worthy was truly an alpha dog type player.

Very arguable.

Put Worthy on a team where he had to be the guy scoring the rock, and u will get clutch, takeover scoring at a 25-27 point clip.

Possibly? We'll never know. Just like we might have never known AD or English or Wilkens or King could do what they'd done if they'd been put in a different situation.

By the time Magic retired the first time, Worthy's body was already beat up to the point where he couldn't show what he could do.

How convenient that he has that excuse. Maybe it was just that Magic made him?

[bizil]

Guess it depends on what you view as an all-time great. There are special players that stand out above the rest and than there are guys like Wilkens that are in a large group of high scoring small forwards that you take your pick from depending on your preference. Hopping around the court didn't impress me as much as a lot of other guys that got similar results without the hype.



None of those guys are in Bird's league. Worthy isn't in the group of great high scoring small forwards that King and Wilkens are either.



Very arguable.



Possibly? We'll never know. Just like we might have never known AD or English or Wilkens or King could do what they'd done if they'd been put in a different situation.



How convenient that he has that excuse. Maybe it was just that Magic made him?

Say what u want about Nique but the man is in the HOF! And in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever. In terms of scoring, Nique, King, English, and Dantley are in Bird's league. It's Bird's all around game that sets him apart from those guys. And Worthy had all the goods to be an alpha dog scorer. His Finals MVP in 1988 proved that. He was splitting the pie with arguably the most talented offensive machine in NBA history. And it's NO excuse that Worthy's body was breaking down when Magic retired the first time. It's a fact and by that time, James was flat out a number two option. Worthy retired at the very young age of 32 years old. That's an age where many or the greats are at their peak or if anything in their prime. So that goes to show that Worthy KNEW his body was breaking down. Many of the other great SF's like Bird, Nique, Doc, Hondo, etc. were all still great at 32 years old.

[Xiao Yao You]

Say what u want about Nique but the man is in the HOF!

So are AD and English and King I imagine will be eventually.

And in the top 10 GOAT SF's ever.

Very arguable. Great scoring small forward. I prefer guys with more all-around games myself.

In terms of scoring, Nique, King, English, and Dantley are in Bird's league.

Probably ahead of him.

It's Bird's all around game that sets him apart from those guys.

What I said.

And Worthy had all the goods to be an alpha dog scorer. His Finals MVP in 1988 proved that.

arguable

He was splitting the pie with arguably the most talented offensive machine in NBA history.

Exactly. Would he have put up 30 a game in Denver/Atlanta/Utah/NY/etc.?