Kareem vs. Moses

[TheBigVeto]

Moses was a great center, one of the best in the business.
But Kareem >> Moses

[momo]

As a lake fan I can say Moses is one of the few opposing players I feared seeing. He was the perfect contrast and counterpoint to kaj. They were great to watch squaring off and they had to continually adjust to each other & re adjust.

[jlauber]

For those that somehow defend 22-23 year old Hakeem when a 38-39 year old year Kareem just torched him to the tune of 31.8 ppg on .630 shooting in ten straight games...

How about a 22 year old Moses nearly battling a a 29 year old Kareem to a draw in the four H2H's? Or a 23 year old Moses slightly outplaying a 30 year old Kareem? Or, a 24 year old Moses POUNDING a 31 year old Kareem, who would win the MVP in '80?

And from that point on, thru the rest of their career H2H's, Moses just OWNED Kareem. You can read the numbers at the beginning of this topic, but in any case, from the 79-80 season thru their last games in '89, Moses was the better player. And, from '80 thru '85, he was a MUCH better player.

Now, back to the "flop jobs" of Kareem...

Once again, in the decade of the 70's, and at his absolute peak, Kareem went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring (and again, with the easiest road to a title in NBA history.) That was IT. And he played with LOADED rosters in '72, '73, '74, '78, and '79, too.

Of course, MAGIC's arrival was an IMMEDIATE title. While the '78 and '79 Lakers were wiped out by the Sonics, Magic torched them in '80, and then led the 60-22 Lakers into the Finals. Granted, Kareem had a monster series in the first five games of the '80 Finals, BUT, he sprained his ankle in game five, and missed game six. So what happened next? Magic completely dominated the game, with a 42-15-7 game (on 14-23 shooting from the field, and 14-14 from the line), and the result was the first of FIVE titles in the decade of the 80's.

However, Magic was injured early on in the 80-81 season, and while he came back, he was somewhat rusty, and it showed. He was awful in that first round, best-of-three series. STILL, it was MOSES, single handedly carrying his 40-42 Rockets past Kareem in that first round. He crushed Kareem in the first two games, including a 38 point beatdown in game one. And, for those question Moses' defense, he held Kareem to a .462 FG% in that series.

Magic became LA's best player from that season, on. He would go on to outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting from the '82 season thru Kareem's last season in 88-89. And, in the '82 Finals, it was Magic who dominated and went on to win the FMVP.

In the '83 Finals, Moses just DESTROYED Kareem, outscoring him, and POUNDING him on the glass by an 18-8 margin. The result...a 4-0 sweep by Moses' 76ers.

Magic took way too much of the blame for the Lakers meltdown in the '84 Finals. True, if he had hit his foul shots in game three, the Lakers would have won that series easily (and if Worthy hadn't thrown the ball away late in game two, it would have been a sweep), BUT, he still hung an 18-8-14 .560 series. Meanwhile, Kareem couldn't hit the Pacific Ocean from a lifeboat in game five, shooting 7-25. And overall, Kareem shot .481 in that Finals...a seven game series loss. Just another of MANY in which he didn't even shoot the league average in the post-season.

Kareem finally had a great Finals in the 84-85 season (albeit after a horrible performance in game one.) It may have been his finest Finals of his career. Still, it was Magic engineering that Laker offense, which averaged 126 ppg in that post-season, en route to a title.

I have documented Kareem's 85-86 season many times here. In his five regular season H2H's against Hakeem, he averaged 33 ppg on a mind-boggling .634 FG%. However, in the WCF's, the Rockets switched Sampson to the defensive assignment on Kareem (and with help from Hakeem.) The 39 year old Kareem still played reasonably well (although he couldn't grab a rebound for his life) averaging 27 ppg on .496 shooting (which included games of 33 and 31 points), BUT, it was a severe decline from his 33 ppg .634 shooting in the regular season. And, it was one of the main reasons why the 62-20 Lakers were stunned by the 51-31 Rockets, 4-1.

Kareem's role was dramatically reduced following that '86 season. He was no longer even LA's second best player (Worthy stepped up to that slot), and while he was a contributor to a title in that 86-87 season, LA was so loaded that they likely would have won a title whether he was there or not.

And, in the next season, Kareem had an AWFUL post-season, and an even WORSE Finals. The Lakers won a title DESPITE his putrid play. Kareem averaged 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, and shot .414 in the Finals, but thanks to Magic and Worthy, the Lakers escaped with a 4-3 series win.

In Kareem's LAST season, he was just a role player. And when Magic (and Scott) went down with injuries, the Lakers were again SWEPT.

That was Kareem's career in a nutshell. Hell, he retired, and the Lakers immediately IMPROVED. They went from a 57-25 team in his last season, to a 63-19 team the very next year. And Magic then led that injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record in HIS last season, and yet another trip to the Finals.

Of course, when Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted back to the pre-Magic days, going 43-39, and then 39-43 in the two years after he retired.

Just some food for thought on Kareem's "GOAT" status...

[jlauber]

Moses was a great center, one of the best in the business.
But Kareem >> Moses

No doubt, Kareem's CAREER was greater than Moses'. And, while Moses pretty much DOMINATED him in their 40 H2H games, I still say that Kareem's REAL prime, was early in his career, from '71 thru '72 and perhaps even into '73. THAT was an athletic, quick, high-flying Kareem.

I think it would have been an interesting matchup, with a '79 thru '83 Moses, against a '71 thur '73 Kareem. No doubt Kareem would have scored considerably more, and would have given Moses a much tougher battle on the glass. But, Kareem was certainly no match for Moses later on, and in their known 16 games in which we have their rebounding H2H's, Moses went 16-0 against Kareem. And I maintain, that since Moses outrebounded Kareem in EVERY season in which the two played, all 13 of them, that he would have held a minimum of a 35-5 edge in those games. And that is a conservative estimate. It may very well have been 40-0.

[HighFlyer23]

Most of the threads you make, such as this one, are with the intent to propel Wilt to some ridiculous level that he was never at

Kareem is the most accomplished basketball player in history, a candidate for GOAT on both the collegiate and professional levels

And he shot better than Moses who averaged a pitiful .430 FG% against Kareem from '86 onward. Kareem went 4-3 against Moses in those 7 games as well despite being ANCIENT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=malonmo01

In the '83 Finals a 36 year old Kareem did fine against Malone

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...83_finals.html

Go wank off to your f@ggot fairy tales of wilt

[jlauber]

Most of the threads you make, such as this one, are with the intent to propel Wilt to some ridiculous level that he was never at

Kareem is the most accomplished basketball player in history, a candidate for GOAT on both the collegiate and professional levels

And he shot better than Moses who averaged a pitiful .430 FG% against Kareem from '86 onward. Kareem went 4-3 against Moses in those 7 games as well despite being ANCIENT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=malonmo01

In the '83 Finals a 36 year old Kareem did fine against Malone

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...83_finals.html

Go wank off to your f@ggot fairy tales of wilt

Talk about "cherry picking." Of course, IF you had read my very first post in this topic, you would have read where I claimed that Moses's decline came faster than Kareem's. BUT, even from '86, in which I documented his decline, he STILL was routinely outscoring Kareem, and he STILL outrebounded Kareem in EVERY one of those games.

Now, please feel free to post their H2H's from the '79-80 season thru 84-85. I know you won't, but in my second post, you can CLEARLY see where Moses was not only outplaying Kareem in nearly every one of their H2H's, he was routinely wiping the floor with Kareem.

[Pointguard]

For those that somehow defend 22-23 year old Hakeem when a 38-39 year old year Kareem just torched him to the tune of 31.8 ppg on .630 shooting in ten straight games...

How about a 22 year old Moses nearly battling a a 29 year old Kareem to a draw in the four H2H's? Or a 23 year old Moses slightly outplaying a 30 year old Kareem? Or, a 24 year old Moses POUNDING a 31 year old Kareem, who would win the MVP in '80?

And from that point on, thru the rest of their career H2H's, Moses just OWNED Kareem. You can read the numbers at the beginning of this topic, but in any case, from the 79-80 season thru their last games in '89, Moses was the better player. And, from '80 thru '85, he was a MUCH better player.

Now, back to the "flop jobs" of Kareem...

Once again, in the decade of the 70's, and at his absolute peak, Kareem went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring (and again, with the easiest road to a title in NBA history.) That was IT. And he played with LOADED rosters in '72, '73, '74, '78, and '79, too.

Of course, MAGIC's arrival was an IMMEDIATE title. While the '78 and '79 Lakers were wiped out by the Sonics, Magic torched them in '80, and then led the 60-22 Lakers into the Finals. Granted, Kareem had a monster series in the first five games of the '80 Finals, BUT, he sprained his ankle in game five, and missed game six. So what happened next? Magic completely dominated the game, with a 42-15-7 game (on 14-23 shooting from the field, and 14-14 from the line), and the result was the first of FIVE titles in the decade of the 80's.

However, Magic was injured early on in the 80-81 season, and while he came back, he was somewhat rusty, and it showed. He was awful in that first round, best-of-three series. STILL, it was MOSES, single handedly carrying his 40-42 Rockets past Kareem in that first round. He crushed Kareem in the first two games, including a 38 point beatdown in game one. And, for those question Moses' defense, he held Kareem to a .462 FG% in that series.

Magic became LA's best player from that season, on. He would go on to outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting from the '82 season thru Kareem's last season in 88-89. And, in the '82 Finals, it was Magic who dominated and went on to win the FMVP.

In the '83 Finals, Moses just DESTROYED Kareem, outscoring him, and POUNDING him on the glass by an 18-8 margin. The result...a 4-0 sweep by Moses' 76ers.

Magic took way too much of the blame for the Lakers meltdown in the '84 Finals. True, if he had hit his foul shots in game three, the Lakers would have won that series easily (and if Worthy hadn't thrown the ball away late in game two, it would have been a sweep), BUT, he still hung an 18-8-14 .560 series. Meanwhile, Kareem couldn't hit the Pacific Ocean from a lifeboat in game five, shooting 7-25. And overall, Kareem shot .481 in that Finals...a seven game series loss. Just another of MANY in which he didn't even shoot the league average in the post-season.

Kareem finally had a great Finals in the 84-85 season (albeit after a horrible performance in game one.) It may have been his finest Finals of his career. Still, it was Magic engineering that Laker offense, which averaged 126 ppg in that post-season, en route to a title.

I have documented Kareem's 85-86 season many times here. In his five regular season H2H's against Hakeem, he averaged 33 ppg on a mind-boggling .634 FG%. However, in the WCF's, the Rockets switched Sampson to the defensive assignment on Kareem (and with help from Hakeem.) The 39 year old Kareem still played reasonably well (although he couldn't grab a rebound for his life) averaging 27 ppg on .496 shooting (which included games of 33 and 31 points), BUT, it was a severe decline from his 33 ppg .634 shooting in the regular season. And, it was one of the main reasons why the 62-20 Lakers were stunned by the 51-31 Rockets, 4-1.

Kareem's role was dramatically reduced following that '86 season. He was no longer even LA's second best player (Worthy stepped up to that slot), and while he was a contributor to a title in that 86-87 season, LA was so loaded that they likely would have won a title whether he was there or not.

And, in the next season, Kareem had an AWFUL post-season, and an even WORSE Finals. The Lakers won a title DESPITE his putrid play. Kareem averaged 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, and shot .414 in the Finals, but thanks to Magic and Worthy, the Lakers escaped with a 4-3 series win.

In Kareem's LAST season, he was just a role player. And when Magic (and Scott) went down with injuries, the Lakers were again SWEPT.

That was Kareem's career in a nutshell. Hell, he retired, and the Lakers immediately IMPROVED. They went from a 57-25 team in his last season, to a 63-19 team the very next year. And Magic then led that injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record in HIS last season, and yet another trip to the Finals.

Of course, when Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted back to the pre-Magic days, going 43-39, and then 39-43 in the two years after he retired.

Just some food for thought on Kareem's "GOAT" status...

Great Posts, as always... at times... when you are rolling like this its like a video.

[jlauber]

Great Posts, as always... at times... when you are rolling like this its like a video.

Well, you basically covered it in your previous post on the topic. Kareem was immensely talented, as well as physically gifted. Yet, he just didn't have the drive that somewhat lessor players like Moses did. Moses was 6-10 for cryingoutloud, and early in his career he was around 230 lbs (he would eventually get to around 260.) And he was not a powerful man, nor a great leaper (in fact, I think he could barely dunk), yet, he just imposed his will on the NBA in his career, particularly from '79 thru '85.

Meanwhile, Kareem just seemed to accept his fate...at least until Magic arrived and re-energized his career. A motivated Kareem was capable of hanging 40+ on just about anyone (although he never approached that figure against either Moses or Thurmond.)

But, in many of his biggest moments, he had his biggest meltdowns. And I have always found it fascinating that Kareem was somehow considered more "clutch" than Wilt, and yet, in their two series clinching H2H games in the '71 and '72 WCF's, an OLD Wilt shot 18-33 (.545) against a PRIME Kareem, while that PRIME Kareem shot a horrible 23-60 (.383) against that OLD Wilt. And while you would be hard-pressed to find very many games in Wilt's entire post-season career, in which he was outplayed, or played poorly, particularly his BIGGEST games, there were quite a few BIG games in Kareem's post-season career in which he flopped. Even ENTIRE SERIES.

Kareem may very well have been the most talented and skilled seven-footer to have ever played the game, but there were many examples when he did not play to that talent level. Meanwhile, there has probably never been a player like Moses, who could DOMINATE, with nowhere near the height, weight, strength, or athleticism of MANY of the so-called "greats."

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kareem was still the best player in '81, imo, and definitely '80. I don't know why anyone would call Moses better than Kareem in '80 given the playoff run Kareem had(his best championship run and even better than the run Moses had in '83, imo) plus his well-deserved MVP award while leading the Lakers to 60 wins. Seriously, almost every game from Kareem's '80 run is available, and at least a half dozen regular season games. He was still an unbelievable player, with a devastating offensive arsenal(far more than just sky hooks), and underrated as far as his vertical and body control for a man 7'2"+. I've seen Abe post that gif occasionally from the Seattle series where a 33 year old Kareem's head is near rim level on a dunk. Kareem was also impressive defensively leading the league in blocks, and being a real presence at that end.

If Kareem lost anything by 1980 you could say it was rebounding as those numbers fell off a bit, but as I've mentioned several times, the Lakers improved their size and in particular the PF position in 1980 and of course, Magic being such a good rebounding guard helped the problem as well.

And look at the difference between how Kareem's teams fared on the boards from '77-'79

1977- Lakers were outrebounded by 2 rpg
1978- Lakers were outrebounded by 2.2 rpg
1979- Lakers were outrebounded by 3.3 rpg

As you can see, those Laker teams were horrible rebounding teams, now look at

1980- Lakers outrebounded opponents by 2.2 rpg
1981- Lakers were about even on the boards(4 more total rebounds than opponents for the season)

So Kareem's decline in rebounding numbers isn't really significant in '80 and '81 compared to '77-'79 considering he had a much better rebounding team.

By the way, when Magic was out in 1981, the Lakers went 28-17 and Kareem raised his scoring to 29 ppg for those 45 games without Magic, showing what I've maintained all along that Kareem could've scored significantly more had he wanted to, which is obvious to me just by watching him play, but also apparent from the 1980 playoff run(when he averaged 32) or the 1977 playoffs(when he averaged 35).

Kareem was still very much in his prime, or close to it, imo. I have very little doubt that the '77 version was a better player than the early 70's version. Especially since Kareem and teammates/opponents were saying that Kareem was at his best in '77. That means a lot more to me than numbers, particularly in a changing league.

When looking at numbers, consider this quote from the man himself in 1977 as well as the merger that year.

The first four or five years I was in the league, I was played basically one on one. There are 2 1/2 men on me all of the time now. One in back, one in front and a guard going for the ball. It's made it necessary for me to do other things."

The one thing I'd say he probably did better in Milwaukee was anchor the defense as Kareem's Lakers were often average defensively, while his Bucks were a dominant defensive team, and Kareem apparently didn't always get back on defense in the mid/late 70's and 80's, so I wouldn't argue that he was a better defensive player or more active defensively in the early 70's.

But I also don't like the simple view that "Kareem's teams underachieved and Magic came in and saved him". I believe that leaves out a lot of important information and as I showed, those late 70's Laker teams were horrible on the boards, and were playing Jamaal Wilkes at PF. They were also in desperate need of a defensive stopper and you can see that Gus Williams lit up the Lakers for 31 ppg in the 1979 playoffs. Michael Cooper got significant playing time the following season solving that problem.

To back up the fact that you're overrating his casts, the '78 Lakers went 8-12 without him(8-13 if you include a game Kareem left after a few minutes).

Regarding the '74 Bucks, Oscar was in his last season, and the Bucks were without Lucius Allen for the playoffs, Lucius had averaged 18/4/5/2 on 50% shooting for the season. Even so, the Bucks got to game 7 of the finals thanks to Kareem's game-winning sky hook in game 6 and Kareem had an amazing playoff run, and averaged just 1 less point than his 2nd and 3rd leading scorers combined for the entire playoffs.

As far as the '72 team. Well, by all accounts, Kareem didn't quite play up to his standards that run, but they lost to a team that had won 6 more games than him. The Lakers were a historic team and favored in the series as I proved to you in the past. And I'll also mention that Oscar was injured, and as long as you're going to bring up the '68 Sixers injuries, at least be consistent when Kareem has key teammates injured. I won't argue with '73, that was an upset with Kareem playing horribly(perhaps somewhat due to distractions requiring Kareem to travel with bodyguards), but either way, I don't want to come off as excusing every bad series he had. Just including more information. And I'll concede some criticism for his play in '72, not criticism for failing to beat the favored 69 win Lakers, but criticism for his actual level of play.

I just feel that you leave out a lot when it comes to Kareem, and are a Magic apologist. For example, you mention Magic being "rusty" as an excuse for the '81 playoffs. Well, Magic returned for the final 17 games of the '80-'81 season and averaged 21.8 ppg after his return compared to 21.4 before his injury.

And those numbers are brought down by Magic's first few games back when he actually was rusty. For example, Magic returned on February 27th and had 12 points in 24 minutes off the bench, and had 9 points in 33 minutes the following game. Magic returned to the starting lineup on March 3rd vs the Kings when he scored 13 points.

Magic finished the '81 season with games of 41 and 33 points, so these claims of him being "rusty" seem unsubstantiated to me. Kareem was the Lakers best player untril '83, imo, after that, it was a good debate between the 2 the next couple of seasons when they were very close. Obviously, Kareem was clearly better in '80 and '81, though I don't hear any arguments from you for those 2 seasons.

Back to the 1981 series, it's important to note that it was a best of 3 mini-series back then, which many hated because anything truly could happen, and we know how close that series was. That's actually the way that Magic's injury affected the Lakers '81 season more, imo, not that he was "rusty" for the series, but if he hadn't missed 45 games, they'd have probably had a better record and had a bye for the mini-series. And as long as you bring up Kareem being outrebounded by Moses as him being "pounded" in the '83 series, remember that in the '81 series, Kareem who was usually an inferior rebounder outrebounded Moses in the '81 series averaging an impressive 17 per game.

And in fairness, you did mention that they didn't always guard each other, but that can't be emphasized enough when looking at head to head match ups. Watch game 2 of the '81 series, Kareem is usually guarded by Billy Paultz and Moses is usually guarded by Jim Chones.

And why not look at 1982? One of Malone's best seasons, he was outplayed by Jack Sikma in the elimination games.

In game 1, Houston led by as many as 9 in the first half and Moses had 16 points at halftime, but Houston blew that lead and lost by 15 with Moses only scoring 4 points in the second half. Houston did respond in game 2 blowing out Seattle by 21 and Moses had 28 points and 23 rebounds. In game 3, Sikma outscored Moses 30-24 and Seattle blew out Houston by 21 to clinch the series. A headline for this game was "Sikma wins battle of the big men." Moses dropped from 31 ppg on 52% shooting during the season to 24 ppg on 43% shooting in the series.

And as long as you're going to mention Moses carrying a "pathetic" 40-42 team to the finals in '81, you should remember that their opponent in the Western Conference Finals was a 40-42 Kings team, so the achievement isn't as shocking as it sounds.

And I wouldn't call that team "pathetic" either, Calvin Murphy had 42 points in that classic game 7 vs the Spurs, thankfully a game that's available.

Not to take anything away from Moses, but he simply wasn't as good as Kareem or Hakeem. He was a better rebounder than either, but both players were better scorers, better defenders and vastly superior passers. I don't see it as particularly debatable. Malone's Rocket teams were consistently among the worst defensive teams in the league(sometimes the worst) and always below average, which is a huge disadvantage when compared to Olajuwon. Malone did join Sixer teams that were already elite defensively(and top contenders before he even got there).

The '84 Sixers really underachieved, they returned the incredibly talented team from '83 and ended up losing in the first round in an upset to the Nets. During that season, the Sixers owner accused Moses of being out of shape and not working as hard as usual. The '85 team also had an embarrassment of riches, though I will concede that losing to the Celtics is nothing to be ashamed of.

I won't argue with Moses being somewhere in the top 15, but top 10? No, don't see it....at all.

[Purch]

I miss the good posters... Shaqattack /fatal/jluabar

[bizil]

When u look at centers who COMBINED pure brute force inside and a well rounded scoring skillset, Moses was a top 2-3 center of all time! I would say Moses, Ewing, and Dream are the top 3 in that realm.

For starters, u won't find a more physical 6'10 center. Secondly, Moses had an AWESOME inside-outside scoring game. Centers like Shaq and Wilt set the standard for physical dominance at center. But Moses had a much better scoring skillset. Moses had a very effective short to medium midrange game. AND Moses took bigger or taller centers off the dribble too.

Peak wise, I think at one time Moses was the THIRD best center of all time. At one time, only Wilt and Kareem were better peak wise. Since then, I think the Dream and Shaq passed him by. I would EASILY take the peak of Moses over the peak of Bill Russell. GOAT wise, Moses was #4 at one point. In both realms, I think Dream and Shaq passed him by. But Big Moses is still a top 6 GOAT kind of center peak and GOAT wise.

[Pointguard]

I miss the good posters... Shaqattack /fatal/jluabar

This seemed about the time Shaqattack and Jluaber disappeared.

[dankok8]

We have all the full stats except blocked shots.

Kareem vs. Moses H2H

Regular Season (34 games)

Kareem: 22.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 3.4 apg, 3.0 bpg (24 games) on 54.5 %FG in 35.4 mpg
Moses: 25.3 ppg. 15.2 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.9 bpg (23 games) on 51.9 %FG in 40.6 mpg

Playoffs (7 games)

Kareem: 24.9 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 2.4 bpg on 50.8 %FG in 41.3 mpg
Moses: 28.1 ppg, 18.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.6 bpg (5 games) on 50.0 %FG in 42.7 mpg


When you realize all these match-ups were between a 22-34 year old Moses (in his prime/peak for basically all of that span) vs. a 30-42 year old Kareem (out of his prime for most of that span) you start thinking that how close the numbers are is a testament to Kareem's greatness not ammunition to tear down his legacy.

What would the numbers be like if it was 22-34 year old Kareem vs. a 30-42 year old Moses?

[Gotterdammerung]

This seemed about the time Shaqattack and Jluaber disappeared.

JLauber is still around, as LAZZERUS.

I wonder where are the other two, ShaqAttack3234 and Fatal9? Real GM boards?

[Odinn]

JLauber is still around, as LAZZERUS.

I wonder where are the other two, ShaqAttack3234 and Fatal9? Real GM boards?

ShaqAttack was posting RealGM a year ago. But I guess he doesn't have the time for all-time talks any more. He hasn't been so active. fpliii is active there tho and sometimes I visit the site for him.

Actually I tried RealGM myself, too. Basketball talk is better there but they have serious numbers of people that are obsessed with "advanced stats" and they can suggest that Moses is inferior player to Nowitzki just because those advanced stats say so. I used strong words about their approach and got the f out there. I like ISH better, at least I'm not considering quitting on ISH.