Peak T-Mac vs Peak Bird

[f0und]

yeah but has bird ever scored 13 points in 35 seconds? didnt think so. next.

**sarcasm using tmac's version of kobe's 81**

[Bob Dole]

Shut this stupid thread down. I'm taking peak bird over any perimeter peak other than that guy from Wilmington, NC

[miles berg]

Not sure any player in NBA history had a better peak than Bird.

Definitely know TMac didn't and I think TMac is underrated historically.

Just not as good as Bird.

[bizil]

Who discredited great m2m defense? And to prop up Bird??? Please, I just said that plenty of people will argue that great team defense can be more impactful, at the end of the day. And of course Bird was great at it, playing passing lanes, creating turnovers, protecting the paint, few weakside blocks, drawing charges, knowing when to double team, never really got lost on rotations, defensive rebounds if you wanna count them... He "won" plenty of games also due to his defensive impact, go check it out.

So, let me get this straight, you're holding him "responsible" and saying he had it "easy", for playing PF? If anything it's the other way around, get your facts straight. His game was better suited as a stretch 4, he was more of a PF (and projected as one out of college), he played as more of a PF in his first years. His game was incredibly all-around and diverse so he could easily play SF and with McHale coming into his own, plus with the Celtics roster at the time, Bird switched to more of a SF and spent his best years as one. If anything he was the one making the "effort", especially at a time when he was pushing 30 and already with back problems.

What's the problem with making defensive teams as a PF? I don't get it, really. '**** Bird because by playing his "natural" position it made his defense better' You're gonna say "**** Tim Duncan" for making the all-defensive team as a PF? That he's not a great defender, that he should be checking SF's??? That's stretching it a bit but something pretty similar is what you're saying. And Bird actually guarded SF's and was somewhat "forced" to play as one during his best years, which he could do and was terrific at it regardless, because of his game.
And again, you're like checking basketball-reference and making your claim, Bird even guarded SF's plenty of times when he was younger (probably more than later on) and playing more as a PF, or better yet listed as one, he was probably taking more jumpers in his younger years than in his days as a SF, but you wanna look at a website and say exactly what he was doing, right?
Also, you're saying Bird wasn't as effective as a defender against Nique, King, J, English, Worthy, and so on, out of your ass, without presenting clear facts. Anyways, no matter who his matchup was, he still played some great team defense which was more important for the team from a player like him, plus he more than held his own various times against good SF scorers (mostly before back issues). Go ahead and check some early-to-mid 80's games, from him, on youtube. And you're talking about some of the greatest scorers at the SF position, nobody was gonna keep them in check, you can't count on Bird to do something like that, shit.

So how many times have you seen the best offensive player guarding the opponent's best scorer for large stretches or during numerous games? You're gonna act like a team's best offensive player never got switched defensively (when they can do it) to save him for offense, it happens much more often than not, with MJ, Bron.. you name it. But let's blame Bird - who was more of a PF, who was already 30, who already had back problems, who was more impactful as sort of a free safety, roaming around - for "having" McHale guarding the opponent's best scoring forward, plenty of times

Check this shit out, while you're at it, that doesn't happen by chance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

For starters, I said Bird was a better defender at PF than SF. An all league caliber defender at PF at that. I was actually giving Bird credit. I wasn't dissing him at all. But he was CLEARLY a better defender at PF than SF. That's all I was saying and PLUS Bird was the size of many PF's back then anyway at 6'9 and 230 pounds.

Secondly, I would venture to say most great one on one perimeter defenders are ALSO great or very good team defenders. For a SF, Bird wasn't a great or even very good one on one defender. And sure a guy like MJ or Kobe might not guard the best perimeter player all game. And Jordan had the luxury of having an epic defender like Pip. But WHEN CALLED UPON, Jordan was lockdown defender flat out. He would see plenty of time on a team's premier perimeter scorer. Or if a team had two great scorers, Jordan would take one and Pippen another. It doesn't matter if he did it all game, he did it ENOUGH to be known as one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever! With all due respect to Bird at SF, he wasn't CAPABLE of being a lockdown defender. If he was, I would venture to say HE WOULD BE AHEAD OF MJ peak value wise if he was the caliber of a defender.

Bottom line is, NOBODY applaued Bird's one on one or lockdown defense. That's was one of the rare facets he wasn't great at. That's not a knock just the facts. And NO Bird wasn't more of a PF than SF. His skillset was more suited to me to be a perfect combo forward. The things that made Bird great were mostly more SF elements to me. Mixed with the great rebounding and hard nosed style of PF. And he could shoot over any SF and was bigger than basically any SF in the L. Kevin Love is pure stretch PF who secondary position is center. Bird is more of SF-PF hybrid. Or PF-SF hybrid. But he was great EQUALLY at either position. At times, I like size to overwhelm opponents if possible. Bird was amongst the biggest SF's in the L during his era. At PF, he's just of average size and height. He's great at either spot, but at SF he could overwhelm with his size AND SKILL! At PF, he couldn't overpower anybody, but he sure as hell could outskill them. Bird to me was not only the GOAT SF but the GOAT combo forward. Don't get on here whining about Bird having to switch positions and all that shit. Like many college players, they change positions once they came in the L.

[Fire Colangelo]

Peak T-Mac was great, and he was one of my favorite players. He had a smooth game, very smooth game. He was able to dunk over people like a few other people.

But no, he wasn't better than Bird.

[Sharmer]

I don't think we ever saw a peak T-mac. He wasn't healthy during his prime years.

[bizil]

I don't think we ever saw a peak T-mac. He wasn't healthy during his prime years.

Great point! That injury bug started hard at like 27. When he was 30, he was done pretty much as an elite player. Very different from Bird who was still awesome into his 30's, even though the injuries were slowing him some too. Bird was still getting 24.3 points, 7.5 assists, and 9.5 rebounds at 33 years of age.

[bizil]

Peak T-Mac was great, and he was one of my favorite players. He had a smooth game, very smooth game. He was able to dunk over people like a few other people.

But no, he wasn't better than Bird.

Fair statement and I agree with you!

[Bigsmoke]

My brother thinks T-Mac peaked higher and there is no argument to be had.

T-Mac: 32/6.5/5.5 on 46%, 56 TS%

Bird: 30/9/6 on 52%, 61 TS%

He also said he's not sure LeBron, Durant or Kobe peaked higher than T-Mac. Basically, he really likes T-Mac.

Just call him an idiot go on with your life

You're an idiot for making this shit

[fragokota]

Peak T-Mac better than peak Bird....That's a quality thread right there....

[ImKobe]

Peak T-Mac was still a 2nd round virgin

[Champ]

Give T-Mac McHale, Parish, DJ, Tiny Archibald, Cornbread, D.Ainge and lets see Bird run with Drew Gooden, Pat Burke and Darrell Armstrong.

I would argue the opposite could/would happen. Look at the numbers Bird put up when he had to lead a cast of scrubs at ISU.