Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

[SCdac]

If Howard had won MVP he would have been the first player to do it while averaging less than 2 assists per game in about 30 years, when Moses Malone won back-to-back MVP's.

Also, if Howard had won it scoring under 23 points a game, he'd be grouped only with older Magic and Nash (all time greats at running a team), and a handful of players from the 50's / 60's / 70's (Walton, Russell, Cousy, etc).

In other words, Howard's particular combination of points (22.9) and assists (1.4) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it never happens.

For basketball reasons, in terms of overall production and MVP's being mainly offensive players, I can see why. He was definitely a candidate in 2011, he improved his offense combined with his DPOY defense, but he didn't deserve to actually win it relative to Rose's stellar season. Lebron I think was also more deserving than Howard, Lebron-Rose is more of a debate IMO.

Just for the sake of comparison, here's a similar player in Moses winning it compared to when Howard "should have won it" according to some.

Moses '83

24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.0 bpg, 50.1 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 3.4 topg, 37.5 mpg

Philly won 65 games after getting Malone from the Rockets (then won the championship).

Howard '11

22.9 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 bpg, 59.3 FG%, 59.6 FT%, 3.6 topg, 37.6 mpg

Magic won 52 games despite Howard's improvement, which was a drop off from the previous two 59-win seasons when Dwight was less of a scorer (then they lost in the first round).

[ShaqAttack3234]

If Howard had won MVP he would have been the first player to do it while averaging less than 2 assists per game in about 30 years, when Moses Malone won back-to-back MVP's.

So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

if you want to look at like this, Rose shot 44.5% making him one of only two MVPs in the last 40 years to shoot under 45%, along with Iverson who shot 42% in 2001.

In fact, in the last 50 seasons, those 2 and Bill Russell in 1965 are the only 3 MVPs who have shot under 45% and of course when Russell did it, the league average for FG% was just 42.6%, and Russell of course wasn't known primarily for scoring, just like a certain Orlando Magic center was known first and foremost for his defense and rebounding.

Also, if Howard had won it scoring under 23 points a game, he'd be grouped only with older Magic and Nash (all time greats at running a team), and a handful of players from the 50's / 60's / 70's (Walton, Russell, Cousy, etc).

Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.

In other words, Howard's particular combination of points (22.9) and assists (1.4) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it never happens.

And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.

For basketball reasons, in terms of overall production and MVP's being mainly offensive players, I can see why. He was definitely a candidate in 2011, he improved his offense combined with his DPOY defense, but he didn't deserve to actually win it relative to Rose's stellar season. Lebron I think was also more deserving than Howard, Lebron-Rose is more of a debate IMO.

As far as offensive production, well, since arbitrary numbers are the theme, here's some.

In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%)
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%)
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%)
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%)
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%)
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%)

Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.

Just for the sake of comparison, here's a similar player in Moses winning it compared to when Howard "should have won it" according to some.

Moses '83

24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.0 bpg, 50.1 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 3.4 topg, 37.5 mpg

Philly won 65 games after getting Malone from the Rockets (then won the championship).

Howard '11

22.9 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 bpg, 59.3 FG%, 59.6 FT%, 3.6 topg, 37.6 mpg

Magic won 52 games despite Howard's improvement, which was a drop off from the previous two 59-win seasons when Dwight was less of a scorer (then they lost in the first round).

What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.

[nathanjizzle]

So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

if you want to look at like this, Rose shot 44.5% making him one of only two MVPs in the last 40 years to shoot under 45%, along with Iverson who shot 42% in 2001.

In fact, in the last 50 seasons, those 2 and Bill Russell in 1965 are the only 3 MVPs who have shot under 45% and of course when Russell did it, the league average for FG% was just 42.6%, and Russell of course wasn't known primarily for scoring, just like a certain Orlando Magic center was known first and foremost for his defense and rebounding.



Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.



And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.



As far as offensive production, well, since arbitrary numbers are the theme, here's some.

In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%)
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%)
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%)
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%)
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%)
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%)

Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.



What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.

[Psycho]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose.

Well that's a rather arbitrary selection of games and arbitrary selection of stats for said arbitrarily selected games. Gotta try harder than that jizz

[HoopsFanNumero1]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.

Stop spamming that shit all over the boards.

[nathanjizzle]

And this thread is also not about playing against the top teams. Doesn't matter if Lebron played better against the Raptors or Bucks. He averaged more than Rose. Lebron had better stats and was a flat out better player. He was/is/and will always be better than Rose. He should have won the MVP.
Lerbon was a better passer, rebounder, scorer and defender than Rose.

Lebron >>>>>>>> Rose any way you look at it.
If you're suggesting that the Bulls >> the Heat in the RS, then I'd agree with you. Replace Rose with Lebron on that Bulls team and they win the title.

rose played and carried his team against real competition, he showed up in big moments. cant say the same for lebron. rose played better than lebron in 2011, deal with it. if people could even remember back to 2011, thats the year lebron was being ridiculed for passing on game deciding shots.

[nathanjizzle]

Well that's a rather arbitrary selection of games and arbitrary selection of stats for said arbitrarily selected games. Gotta try harder than that jizz

you can do them against the top 7 6 5 4, rose will still be better than lebrons. these are real telling stats to why rose was chosen as mvp.

[nathanjizzle]

Stop spamming that shit all over the boards.

im only spreading the truth, any anti rose mvp thread is going to have those stats posted. deal with it.

[Peteballa]

Who gives a shit. MVP is such an arbitrary award. There's no real system for how it works. Rose had an incredible season, just let it be. And yes, this is a Heat fan saying this. Also, try and remember that the Bulls were an afterthought, and the Heat were being talked about as if they were going to go 73-9. I'm not saying Rose SHOULD have been the MVP - I honestly don't know who should have been, it's a very debatable argument between Rose-Howard-LeBron-Dirk; however, it's not a travesty that he got it.

[Jameerthefear]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.

His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...

[poido123]

[nathanjizzle]

His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...

"im fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him."

he had 3 players ahead of rose who rosed performed better than. in reality dwight is the only debatable player that season against rose.

[Psycho]

His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...

Better hit those books and turn off the Naruto son, you got those SATs coming up.

[aj1987]

rose played and carried his team against real competition, he showed up in big moments. cant say the same for lebron. rose played better than lebron in 2011, deal with it. if people could even remember back to 2011, thats the year lebron was being ridiculed for passing on game deciding shots.

As I said, the Bulls > Heat in the RS. Rose was nothing special at all. Even then, Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, with Lebron averaging considerably more than Rose. Rose was good, but not MVP good. If Rose played better than Lebron, he would've averaged more than Lebron or at the very least, played better defense. Oh wait, Rose doesn't know what defense is. Rose is not even close to being on Lebron's level. He's a shot jacking mental midget. Replace Lebron and Rose on the 2011 squads, Bulls win 68+ and the ring.
2011 Lebron >>>>>> Rose in scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense.

[KyrieTheFuture]

It's hilarious that people actually think rose deserved this award. Almost as funny as people thinking lebron deserved it. He was like the 4th best candidate that year. Dwight ****ing destroyed the league that year it is a travesty that he did NOT receive it. Rose did not deserve the award at all, Dwight didn't have anyone half as good as Noah (who cares if he missed 40 games?). Plus, rose ha the luxury of playing 0 defense. Dwight WAS the defense and carried a huge offensive load and rebounding load. Dwight was robbed like he was in south side Chicago