People bring up race too often.

[joe]

Here's the problem with minimum wage. It's not on an island unaffected by outside factors.

Minimum wage is generally for low skill jobs. It's simple supply and demand. There's no particular value in low skill work because anybody can do it. A surgeon on the other hand is more valuable because they are in shorter supply.

What happens when you also go ahead and flood the market with low skilled workers from all over the world? The minimum wage actually becomes the MAXIMUM wage for low skill jobs. If you have no particularly valuable skills, you're stuck in minimum wage forever.

The market being flooded with low skilled workers, though, makes the minimum wage even more of a burden. The only leverage a low-skilled worker really has is pay. If he is willing to accept slightly less pay, he can get the job and gain some skills and experience. Over time, he can leverage those skills and experience into higher paying positions. But since the government has made that kind of negotiation illegal, the lowest skilled workers are priced out of the market. They are competing for jobs at 8-9 dollars an hour, when their true value might be more like 6 or 7. So if anyone applies for the job who is even slightly more skilled, they are screwed.

If that person could say, ''I will do this job for 6 dollars an hour. I might not be as skilled as your other candidates, but I will take less money in exchange for this on the job experience,'' they might have a shot. But minimum wage forces the least skilled to compete with the slightly more skilled for the same wage. Who is going to get hired?

By the way, the idea of working for minimum wage sickens me. I honestly I think it is terrible to have to pump gas for 9 dollars an hour, let alone 6. But I think these free market arguments are correct, in that they do the best job of explaining human nature, and how people interact in the market. I wish there was less greed and employees were all willing to share their profits with the little guy.

[Akrazotile]

It's one thing to simply see things differently and have legitimately different opinions on subjects.

But posters like Droid and DeucePhallus are always so INCREDIBLY suffused with agenda instead of logic that it just boggles the mind.

Droid is obsessed with homosexuals for some reason, so he is FIERCELY loyal to the liberal cause. It's a blind, retarded, mindless loyalty but he's loyal nonetheless. He just shouts talking points. He fights the battles he's told to fight, takes the position he's supposed to on every issue, he's literally a front-line soldier for the liberal agenda and hasn't actually given the issues the slightest consideration of his own. He just knows that he loves homosexuals, he's desperate to see them accepted, and since the liberal side of the aisle pays that lip service he is all in for them. The dude has no actual brain. He has no qualifications to speak on intellectual issues. He has no understanding, no logic, no reasoning skills, he's just a drone. It's amazing.

Deucewallace is similar but is mostly in it for the image. He's insecure and wholly plain and unspecial, so he tries to take "edgy" liberal views to make himself seem like he has something that stands out about him. Of course, intelligent posters see through the guise easily, but not surprisingly he does have some of the more easily wowed posters fooled.


But seriously, having a discussion with these two when you're trying to actually tease out the truth of the issue, is like doing this over and over again to infinite.

[NumberSix]

The market being flooded with low skilled workers, though, makes the minimum wage even more of a burden. The only leverage a low-skilled worker really has is pay. If he is willing to accept slightly less pay, he can get the job and gain some skills and experience. Over time, he can leverage those skills and experience into higher paying positions. But since the government has made that kind of negotiation illegal, the lowest skilled workers are priced out of the market. They are competing for jobs at 8-9 dollars an hour, when their true value might be more like 6 or 7. So if anyone applies for the job who is even slightly more skilled, they are screwed.

If that person could say, ''I will do this job for 6 dollars an hour. I might not be as skilled as your other candidates, but I will take less money in exchange for this on the job experience,'' they might have a shot. But minimum wage forces the least skilled to compete with the slightly more skilled for the same wage. Who is going to get hired?

By the way, the idea of working for minimum wage sickens me. I honestly I think it is terrible to have to pump gas for 9 dollars an hour, let alone 6. But I think these free market arguments are correct, in that they do the best job of explaining human nature, and how people interact in the market. I wish there was less greed and employees were all willing to share their profits with the little guy.

It's like people are completely unaware that the original reason for things like minimum wages and unions was to make sure that whites didn't lose their jobs to blacks who were willing to work for less.

[Patrick Chewing]

let me ask you something...if black people were getting so much handed to them, getting treated so much better by the government, why are they still so far behind as you so eloquently described earlier? i wasn't aware that there were any laws mandating that black people get shit that other people don't.

If Blacks cannot survive even with all the handouts they are given, then that's on them. When black families are born into a handout society, that's all they'll ever expect. Their government will take care of them cause of this slavery thing and this segregation thing that happened years ago. That's the reason why the Black community overwhelmingly votes Democrat. Democrats fill their heads with handouts and spew propaganda about the other party and how the other party won't take care of them. But look at how disenfranchised the Black community has been for years. All under Liberal leadership.

Look at all these grants and scholarships for blacks that are available to them in college. You know who's taking advantage of those?? Haitians. I can't tell you how many Haitians are in college versus native-born Blacks. There should be no reason why Haitians or Latinos are more successful than the average Black person in America. No reason.

[Dresta]

It seems as though you like to post under the guise of some scientific mind, but it's clear you're quite inept if you don't understand simple experimental designs and analysis that can easily control for covariates such as income while assessing the impacts of race on economic or social achievement.

Seriously, I tried to give your verbose ramblings the benefit of the doubt in the past, but it's clear you really don't understand science with statements like this.

You really are a dumbass if you truly believe that.

yeah bruh, you can just isolate a single factor, using a wholly arbitrary and selective method to do so, and it be completely accurate an non-arbitrary - honestly, your credulity is right off the charts if you believe such nonsense. If it so valid why don't you prove its epistemological validity? Do you even have an epistemological basis for the things you believe, or do you just believe them? As far as i'm concerned it doesn't fit under the narrow definition of 'science' because it isn't open to falsification; it's an abstract, a construct, and has no tangible existence. If it can't be disproven then you really have no right to purport it as scientific fact, really. Such statistics can never be disproven because they are arbitrary selected nonsense. There are no constants in history - get that into that thoughtless head of yours, jeez.

You wouldn't know science if it smacked you straight in the face. You're rather indicative of the latest generation of 'scientists' who define science as 'what i've been told works by my teacher' and who spend their time conducting the most pointless of research to meet a quota, but which serves no actual function aside from careerism. I know your type: good grades, no brains - typical, mediocre, boring. It's generally what happens when science is opened up to the masses and divorced from its philosophical underpinnings: science as pragmatism, science as a means of expedience (and thus a vast overvaluation of what science can actually show and tell us as human beings) - these being rather typical motivations of the rabble, i.e. you.

according to many white people, yes. racism doesn't exist anymore in 2015
yes, people purposely have kids so they can get an extra check a month that won't cover all of the expenses that come with children. the money you get from welfare or food stamps isn't shit. it's not enough to completely live off of by itself, and it's not meant to be, which is why you can't get things like food stamps without first being employed.

government welfare didn't encourage people to just start f*cking more. you aren't this stupid

more bullshit. i find it hilarious how people who spend no time around black people outside of the ones they interact with online, somehow have so much insight as to how black people think. it's nothing but bullshit conjured from your own racist preconceived notions about black people. you act like black dudes are getting jumped for trying to go to school, and are constantly ridiculed for getting good grades or some shit it's not other black people keeping black people in poor neighborhoods. it's the problem of being poor in and of itself. poverty isn't something that one can just wake up and say "i'm done with this". it's a process. and it's a process that isn't available to everybody.



let me ask you something...if black people were getting so much handed to them, getting treated so much better by the government, why are they still so far behind as you so eloquently described earlier? i wasn't aware that there were any laws mandating that black people get shit that other people don't.

Here you go, proving you have not a leg to stand on, and are nothing more than a hysterical race-baiting piece of trash. You have nothing interesting or useful or insightful to say so you mindlessly demonise your opponent as a 'racist' because you have no answer for the things he is saying. I'll just expose the gross stupidity of your post before never replying to you again, because people like you simply are not worth having a discussion with, if they need dehumanise their opponents in such a way:

1. There is most certainly a culture, rather prevalent in black communities, that disdains learning, education, and basically all the behaviours that would allow them to get ahead in the world. This is incredibly destructive and by no means limited to black communities (they are simply less well protected against it). I speak from my own experience, actually, as when i went to school, i would hide the book i read on the bus, because it was embarrassing to be seen reading outside of school. That's just the way it is in a lot of places, and the problem is more pronounced among blacks because they don't have the family structures that protect against things like peer-pressure (nearly 75% born out of wedlock!). No race would succeed in these conditions. It has nothing to do with race you ignorant piece of shit, and everything to do with culture.

2. Your last paragraph? Why if they're given stuff are they failing? Why do you think genius? Because dependency doesn't increase an individual's resourcefulness and self-sufficiency now, does it? Rather, it makes them more dependent, a perpetual liability, a perpetual child who needs to be looked after and cared for. Do you know what type of person is usually resourceful? Someone who's had to work their arse off to get what they have. Do you know who tends not to be? Spoiled kids who get things given to them all throughout life.

3. It's got little to do with 'wanting to have kids', and everything to do with taking away the major incentive to avoid such pregnancies directly, which encourages irresponsible behaviours, as there is protection in case of early pregnancy (the correlation between the increase in these benefits, and the mushrooming of out of wedlock births, is clear as day - it fits logically, and it fits empirically, so stop denying it). It is really little more than common sense, something you evidently lack.

Now **** off and get lost. I won't be replying to you again.

Look at all these grants and scholarships for blacks that are available to them in college. You know who's taking advantage of those?? Haitians. I can't tell you how many Haitians are in college versus native-born Blacks. There should be no reason why Haitians or Latinos are more successful than the average Black person in America. No reason.

Clearly Haitians don't have to deal with racism

[DeuceWallaces]

yeah bruh, you can just isolate a single factor, using a wholly arbitrary and selective method to do so, and it be completely accurate an non-arbitrary - honestly, your credulity is right off the charts if you believe such nonsense. If it so valid why don't you prove its epistemological validity? Do you even have an epistemological basis for the things you believe, or do you just believe them?

Yeah, it's called the scientific process. Wow. You really just exposed yourself. You're not that bright. This is basic experimental design and analysis but you don't understand it at all. It's a very simple analysis to control for poverty or any other covariate while focusing on race.

I'm really disappointed in you. You put up quite the front but really don't understand much beyond the high school level.

[NumberSix]

Yeah, it's called the scientific process. Wow. You really just exposed yourself. You're not that bright. This is basic experimental design and analysis but you don't understand it at all. It's a very simple analysis to control for poverty or any other covariate while focusing on race.

I'm really disappointed in you. You put up quite the front but really don't understand much beyond the high school level.

Do any of your posts ever contain anything other than "you don't understand what you're talking about"?

[The Iron Sheik]

If Blacks cannot survive even with all the handouts they are given, then that's on them. When black families are born into a handout society, that's all they'll ever expect. Their government will take care of them cause of this slavery thing and this segregation thing that happened years ago. That's the reason why the Black community overwhelmingly votes Democrat. Democrats fill their heads with handouts and spew propaganda about the other party and how the other party won't take care of them. But look at how disenfranchised the Black community has been for years. All under Liberal leadership.

what "handouts" are black people given that other people aren't?

and you said of all this shit but still didn't answer my question

Look at all these grants and scholarships for blacks that are available to them in college. You know who's taking advantage of those?? Haitians. I can't tell you how many Haitians are in college versus native-born Blacks.

haitions are black people. you're confusing "race" with nationality.

and no black person gets millions or thousands of dollars in grants just for being black. again, if all of this shit was just sitting there available to take for free, why are black people so behind like you said?

There should be no reason why Haitians or Latinos are more successful than the average Black person in America. No reason.

what allowed you to reach this conclusion that those groups are "more successful" than black people? you've done some field research

[DeuceWallaces]

Do any of your posts ever contain anything other than "you don't understand what you're talking about"?

Maybe you should read the beginning of the thread? That might be a good idea. Not just my response to someone who's writing 500 words on how you can't control for poverty or other important covariates while analyzing the effects of race on economic and social achievement.

Should I agree with him? Would that be a good idea? "Yes person talking about scientific analysis who actually has no idea what he/she is talking about. Yes you are right. You can't analyze race at all."

[The Iron Sheik]

snip

all of this shit to say nothing. guy gets emotional when someone points out his racism. that's what i hate. i don't care if someone is racist. that's fine. i just hate passive aggressive racism that white people try to pass off as intellectualism. saying black people suck isn't really a new idea or something groundbreaking, son.

you and pat keep saying that black people are given handouts that are so much greater than others that it should be impossible (according to pat) for them to be behind anyone else (even though you still haven't pointed out what these handouts are), but yet black people are...still behind according to you all again. black people aren't raised thinking that the federal government will just...take care of them their entire life, because that's impossible anyway.

again, what black-specific benefits are these? if black people are just given so much shit, it shouldn't matter if they're responsible or not because the government will just make up for their mistakes, right? you probably saw some black chick on twitter post about getting her income tax when thinking this up huh?

[Patrick Chewing]

what "handouts" are black people given that other people aren't?

and you said of all this shit but still didn't answer my question



haitions are black people. you're confusing "race" with nationality.

and no black person gets millions or thousands of dollars in grants just for being black. again, if all of this shit was just sitting there available to take for free, why are black people so behind like you said?



what allowed you to reach this conclusion that those groups are "more successful" than black people? you've done some field research

My point is that Blacks and Black culture is so far behind due to their own choosing. I know Haitians are black, but Haitians don't know about American slavery and the plight of the black man in America. They've come to this country and are actually IN school. You ever been to the hospital or a hospice? Mostly all the nurses are either Asian or Haitian. And you ask them how long they've been in this country and you can literally count it with just one hand sometimes.

And if you don't know what "handouts" are given to blacks, then you're just being ignorant. Welfare checks may not apply to a single race, but blacks dominate as the majority recipients. Go to a Financial Aid counselor in college and ask them to name you how many grants and scholarships are out there for African-Americans. Bring a notebook and a pen cause you'll be there for a while.

[Akrazotile]

Maybe you should read the beginning of the thread? That might be a good idea. Not just my response to someone who's writing 500 words on how you can't control for poverty or other important covariates while analyzing the effects of race on economic and social achievement.

Should I agree with him? Would that be a good idea? "Yes person talking about scientific analysis who actually has no idea what he/she is talking about. Yes you are right. You can't analyze race at all."

If someone doesnt get a job because their name is LaTavrius it's impossible to determine (without being explicitly told) whether the hiring party passed them over due to their presumed skin color, or their presumed culture/background, which are DIFFERENT issues. The point Dresta seemed to be making was that while a one-trick pony like you can simply chalk everything up to "racism" over and over again, in reality it's not that simple.

And instead of contributing thoughts to the actual topic of the thread, you've locked onto a semantic point and keep repeating "covariates covariates covariates" hoping people will mistake it for a contribution.

Youve still not articulated any viewpoints on the subtleties of the issue. Youve just given a couple blanket agreements "yup it's racism" and then just keep repeating "covariates covariates covariates covariates covariates".

Youre not fooling anyone. Discuss the topic or just stfu.

[NumberSix]

If someone doesnt get a job because their name is LaTavrius it's impossible to determine (without being explicitly told) whether the hiring party passed them over due to their presumed skin color, or their presumed culture/background, which are DIFFERENT issues. The point Dresta seemed to be making was that while a one-trick pony like you can simply chalk everything up to "racism" over and over again, in reality it's not that simple.

And instead of contributing thoughts to the actual topic of the thread, you've locked onto a semantic point and keep repeating "covariates covariates covariates" hoping people will mistake it for a contribution.

Youve still not articulated any viewpoints on the subtleties of the issue. Youve just given a couple blanket agreements "yup it's racism" and then just keep repeating "covariates covariates covariates covariates covariates".

Youre not fooling anyone. Discuss the topic or just stfu.

There definitely is subtlety. If an employer sees a name like "Michael Washington" with education from a respected historically black university, he's not gonna have the same negative impression as he would with "JaMarian Washington" from a local community college.

It still is a prejudice. It's that he thinks JaMarian might be some ghetto guy. It's not a blanket thing against blacks, but it's not clean of racial stereotyping either.

[dannywpt]

LaTavrius?

JaMarian?

What the ****

[The Iron Sheik]

And if you don't know what "handouts" are given to blacks, then you're just being ignorant. Welfare checks may not apply to a single race, but blacks dominate as the majority recipients

even though that isn't true, go ahead and say this instead. government assistance programs weren't created for black people. and they aren't something that the majority of black people live on. it isn't possible to live entirely off of government assistance anyway.

Go to a Financial Aid counselor in college and ask them to name you how many grants and scholarships are out there for African-Americans. Bring a notebook and a pen cause you'll be there for a while.

i did and it's not much believe me. but you'll get much more money by having good grades, or having great recommendations, or having parents who have good enough credit to take out big loans. minority scholarships aren't a large part of paying for college lol. college is expensive for everyone. black people experience the same college debt as anyone else.

i just want to know what all of these amazing benefits for black people are so i can go get them. i'd gladly take a check