If MJ couldn't handle Magic...

[3ball]

James has about 30-40 lbs on Magic.

Exactly - Lebron's heavy weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game and catch-and-go game - Lebron's Karl Malone-like physique isn't ideal for defending quick, high-motor off-ball players or catch-and-go players..

When has Lebron ever guarded the type of offense shown above (running off-ball like Reggie Miller, but done by a super-athlete who slashes to the rim)??.. Never - he's never had to guard a player like that.. As you can see, even dpoy players (Cooper and Rodman) who have OPTIMAL physiques for guarding quick, catch-and-go players can't keep up with MJ.

It would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ.. It would look like a mismatch from the outset - no coach would sap Lebron's energy by having him guard MJ... JR Smith would get the nod, or Wade, or Larry Hughes in 2007 Cleveland.. It's better those guys get dropped off than Lebron.

[90sgoat]

One thing is for sure, Lebron would get torched trying to guard MJ. Lebron couldn't even guard Kawhi lol.

[GIF REACTION]

Rose was 1/15 (6.66%) from the field with LeBron guarding him in G4/G5 in 2011

[sdot_thadon]

One thing is for sure, Lebron would get torched trying to guard MJ. Lebron couldn't even guard Kawhi lol.

Was he even guarding him?

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Lebron can't post worth a lick compared to Magic... or MJ.

Lebron has NEVER exploited a smaller player by posting up and having a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).
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Ill never understand the obsession with assist rates, etc.

it works.

btw, for your isolation arguement.

we dont actually have stats of MJ's isolation.

You actually pointed something out. PHILA counted spot ups as isolations... sooooooo yeah.

the thing about that post up rate, is that the way you are talking, this is streetball rules.

and well, heres the difference. 60 pounds. and I will laugh if you post the barea gif. because you and I both know how that would work out now/in a real one on one

[DonDadda59]

35 year old Jordan being guarded by the 6'7" 270 lbs Anthony Mason



Meanwhile PRIME LeBron could barely shoot over 30% against the 6'6" 220 lbs Andre Igoudala. My mistake... Finals MVP Andre Igoudala.

[3ball]

and btw, in terms of being 104th of 315th and that kind of stuff, we have to take into account other things, such as those people who did it once and have got a 2.00 ppp rating.

The 100+ guys that are ahead of Lebron in post-ups, isolations and midrange includes almost every single good/star player there is.. ... 100+ guys is a super-ton.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option..

as for that playmakers to play finishers... How is that relevent?

By turning his teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, Lebron prevents his team from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players SHARE the play-making responsibility - this is the best brand of basketball used by teams who are considered "smart" teams, like the Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls.

Remember that anytime an equal or less-talented team wins, they won by playing a superior brand of basketball, which overcomes the talent factor... Since Lebron prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity), equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).. Lebron's game prevents his teams from reaching their ceiling or playing to capacity, so his teams underperform.

Otoh, MJ's off-ball game increased the APG and assist % of his teammates - teammates RETAINED their playmaking duties alongside MJ, which allowed the Bulls to run the equal-opportunity triangle... Since MJ's game allowed the Bulls to play the best brand of basketball available at that time, equal or less-talented opponents couldn't pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's off-ball game allowed the team to reach it's capacity, which is why his teams never underperformed by losing to an equal or less-talented team... Ever

Lebron is probably the greatest of all time in terms of making bad teams good.

Not better than MJ... We can statistically show that MJ carried his 1989 Bulls more than Lebron carried his 2009 and 2010 teams:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

[COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

points per possession...

Right... Lebron's points-per-possession is below-average on isolations, midrange and post-ups... This is statistical fact - let me know if you need me to post the links to the NBA's player-tracking data for post-ups, midrange and isolations.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option.
.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

The 100+ guys that are ahead of Lebron in post-ups, isolations and midrange includes almost every single good/star player there is.. ... 100+ guys is a super-ton.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option..



By turning his teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, Lebron prevents his team from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players SHARE the play-making responsibility - this is the best brand of basketball used by teams who are considered "smart" teams, like the Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls.

Remember that anytime an equal or less-talented team wins, they won by playing a superior brand of basketball, which overcomes the talent factor... Since Lebron prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity), equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).. Lebron's game prevents his teams from reaching their ceiling or playing to capacity, so his teams underperform.

Otoh, MJ's off-ball game increased the APG and assist % of his teammates - teammates RETAINED their playmaking duties alongside MJ, which allowed the Bulls to run the equal-opportunity triangle... Since MJ's game allowed the Bulls to play the best brand of basketball available at that time, equal or less-talented opponents couldn't pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's off-ball game allowed the team to reach it's capacity, which is why his teams never underperformed by losing to an equal or less-talented team... Ever



Not better than MJ... We can statistically show that MJ carried his 1989 Bulls more than Lebron carried his 2009 and 2010 teams (that underachieved their playoff seeding).

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

[COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.



Right... Lebron's points-per-possession is below-average on isolations, midrange and post-ups... This is statistical fact - let me know if you need me to post the links to the NBA's player-tracking data for post-ups, midrange and isolations.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option.
.

I havent slept for 23 ****ing hours

oh, and people saying he aint a good iso defender
https://twitter.com/SynergySST/statu...07307769511937
...
there were like, 50 people better than Davis in the pick and roll... does that prove anything? no.

IIRC, Lebron ranked in the 75th percentile in isolations. also, I dont just have to remember.
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/iso...ort=Percentile

Filtering in for players who have had more than 100 isolations, lebron ranks 20th. he is below average in the post up... but thats for this year. what about a few years ago?


Season To rim PPP Rank
2010-11 13.7% 1.043 4
2011-12 14.9% 0.959 5
2012-13 15.0% 0.972 4
2013-14 29.6% 1.185 1


You realize how the play type for primary ball handler works right? if he kicks it out its a spot up...


09? Im not even going to try to talk about that.

11, yeah, he did do bad.

14? really? 14?

I actually dare you to show that.

in a 3 year stretch without lebron, the Cavs went 1-14

171-61 with him btw

Bulls went 23-45.
When MJ got injured

so yeah...

as for that playoff arguement, I must kindly ask, what was their box plus? mmkay, thanks

btw, for him not being good at any other play

kindly tell me his ppp for the cut, the spot up, the hand off, as the roll man, and in transition. mmmk? thanks.

I find it funny how you are so offended by me saying they are comparable.

[3ball]

and well, heres the difference. 60 pounds.

[COLOR="Navy"]Exactly - Lebron's heavy weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game and catch-and-go game - Lebron's Karl Malone-like physique isn't ideal for defending quick, high-motor off-ball players or catch-and-go players..
[/COLOR]
When has Lebron ever guarded the type of offense shown above (running off-ball like Reggie Miller, but done by a super-athlete who slashes to the rim)??.. Never - he's never had to guard a player like that.. As you can see, even dpoy players (Cooper and Rodman) who have OPTIMAL physiques for guarding quick, catch-and-go players can't keep up with MJ.

It would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ.. It would look like a mismatch from the outset - no coach would sap Lebron's energy by having him guard MJ... JR Smith would get the nod, or Wade, or Larry Hughes in 2007 Cleveland.. It's better those guys get dropped off than Lebron.

and I will laugh if you post the barea gif. because you and I both know how that would work out now/in a real one on one

Lebron isn't a post player - he wouldn't post up Jordan, because he's NEVER posted up ANY player repeatedly.. He's virtually never had a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).

Btw, an an unrelated note, you know that MJ is the greatest iso player of all time right?
.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

[COLOR="Navy"]Exactly - Lebron's heavy weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game and catch-and-go game - Lebron's Karl Malone-like physique isn't ideal for defending quick, high-motor off-ball players or catch-and-go players..
[/COLOR]
When has Lebron ever guarded the type of offense shown above (running off-ball like Reggie Miller, but done by a super-athlete who slashes to the rim)??.. Never - he's never had to guard a player like that.. As you can see, even dpoy players (Cooper and Rodman) who have OPTIMAL physiques for guarding quick, catch-and-go players can't keep up with MJ.

It would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ.. It would look like a mismatch from the outset - no coach would sap Lebron's energy by having him guard MJ... JR Smith would get the nod, or Wade, or Larry Hughes in 2007 Cleveland.. It's better those guys get dropped off than Lebron.



Lebron isn't a post player - he wouldn't post up Jordan, because he's NEVER posted up ANY player repeatedly.. He's virtually never had a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).

Btw, an an unrelated note, you know that MJ is the greatest iso player of all time right?
.

****ing kidding me right?

its Bendtner

[3ball]

Filtering in for players who have had more than 100 isolations, lebron ranks 20th.

You know that MJ was the greatest isolation player of all time right?.. So, how does that compare to Lebron being 20th in a single season?

For example - see the gif above?... Lebron would never.... in a million years... get an isolation bucket in that spot like MJ did... MJ had the quick-decision ability and REPERTOIRE to isolate the defender really quickly in that spot and get an AND1...

Lebron wouldn't get an isolation bucket there - he'd hold the ball for about 5 seconds and then pull it out for a high screen-roll.. Btw, that's the type of quick, catch-and-go play that Lebron's big, lumbering physique isn't quick enough or suited to guard... No coach would ever want Lebron's big ass chasing around and expending energy guarding that.
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[DavisIsMyUniBro]

[COLOR="Navy"]Exactly - Lebron's heavy weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game and catch-and-go game - Lebron's Karl Malone-like physique isn't ideal for defending quick, high-motor off-ball players or catch-and-go players..
[/COLOR]
When has Lebron ever guarded the type of offense shown above (running off-ball like Reggie Miller, but done by a super-athlete who slashes to the rim)??.. Never - he's never had to guard a player like that.. As you can see, even dpoy players (Cooper and Rodman) who have OPTIMAL physiques for guarding quick, catch-and-go players can't keep up with MJ.

It would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ.. It would look like a mismatch from the outset - no coach would sap Lebron's energy by having him guard MJ... JR Smith would get the nod, or Wade, or Larry Hughes in 2007 Cleveland.. It's better those guys get dropped off than Lebron.



Lebron isn't a post player - he wouldn't post up Jordan, because he's NEVER posted up ANY player repeatedly.. He's virtually never had a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).

Btw, an an unrelated note, you know that MJ is the greatest iso player of all time right?
.

thing is, Lebron aint exactly slow.... I mean come on.

As for th e 75% figure, do you mean he runs the pick and roll 75% of the time?

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Rose was 1/15 (6.66%) from the field with LeBron guarding him in G4/G5 in 2011

No offense, but I dont respect you as a poster, at all.

nevertheless,
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...lation-defense

[3ball]

thing is, Lebron aint exactly slow.... I mean come on.

As for th e 75% figure, do you mean he runs the pick and roll 75% of the time?

He isn't slow for a forward... But for a guard, his speed and quickness is average, and nowadays, easily below-average.

Again, Lebron's big, PF-type physique isn't quick enough or suited to guard MJ's quick, catch-and-go game.. Lebron would get destroyed.

As for the 75% - that's the proportion of Lebron's offense that's either screen-roll, isolation or transition (post-ups are 8.6%)... He's simply not a post player and he's never had a big game on the post or exploited ANYONE on the post... But somehow he's going to post up the goat... it's ludicrous
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[DavisIsMyUniBro]

He isn't slow for a forward... For a guard, he's average, and nowadays, easily below-average.

Again, Lebron's big, PF-type physique isn't quick enough or suited to guard MJ's quick, catch-and-go game.. Lebron would get destroyed.

As for the 75% - that's the proportion of Lebron's offense that's either screen-roll, isolation or transition... He's simply not a post player and he's never had a big game or exploited ANYONE on the post.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8...mate-tight-end

timed at a 4.4 40 yard, which is very slightly below MJ.