Stats for MJ vs Kareem thru 13 seasons each (70-82' vs 85-98')

[3ball]

.
REGULAR SEASON

Jordan:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 31.5 ppg.. 58.0 ts.. 35.3 usg.. 120 ortg.. 29.1 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 9.0 bpm
Kareem:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 26.5 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 25.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 26.5 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 7.9 bpm


PLAYOFFS

Jordan:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 33.5 ppg.. 56.8 ts.. 35.6 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 10.1 bpm
Kareem:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 29.1 ppg.. 56.7 ts.. 26.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 25.8 PER.. 0.232 ws/48.... 8.7 bpm


FINALS

Jordan:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 33.5 ppg.. 6 fmvp
Kareem:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 26.0 ppg.. 2 fmvp


SUMMARY - jordan has a massive statistical and winning edge over kareem.. this is despite Kareem not winning much in the 70's and playing for himself, while MJ was restricted by a winning system and brand of ball

Obviously, if we included 83-89' for Kareem (his mostly carried years), MJ would've beaten him by even more

* ortg was only available for 78-82' for Kareem, so his high season from that period was used.. bpm was available for 74-82' (most of the period in question), so the average was used

[Big164]

Jordan is amazing and all but Doth protest too much!

[3ball]

Jordan is amazing and all but Doth protest too much!

Had to put the facts out there

And obviously, if we included 83-89' for Kareem (his mostly carried years), MJ would've beaten him by even more

[sdot_thadon]

very telling how since Mj only had 13 relevant years everyone else's caree must be cut to fit his career. Kareem played more years why should we need to ignore his shelf life?

**also at you getting that triggered by a single post from that other thread. hope your stats are correct this time..

[Big164]

Kareem is propped as an alternative to mj. But Kareem never even surpassed Wilt or Russell tbh. Kareem practically had the entire 1970s to himself and was lossing to Luke Waltons Dad, and a Faded Celtics team with grandpa Havlicek as the best player. Kareem is so Over rated its silly.

Anyone playing with magic was gonna get hive rings.

[3ball]

very telling how since Mj only had 13 relevant years everyone else's caree must be cut to fit his career. [COLOR="DarkRed"]Kareem played more years why should we need to ignore his shelf life?[/COLOR]

if we included 83-89' for Kareem (his mostly carried years), MJ would've beaten him by even more

We're doing Kareem a favor by cutting it off at 13 seasons - those are his best years..

**also at you getting that triggered by a single post from that other thread. hope your stats are correct this time..

I was triggered, but doesn't mean I'm wrong - the stats don't lie - and those are links to the source data, so the data is accurate, as anyone can verify

But I understand why you'd wonder if they're accurate - the gap is so distinct - Kareem was more obviously inferior than you thought..

Of course, the stats mean nothing without the rings, which MJ obviously had, and tripled up the fmvp count

['Toine=MVP]

Kareem is propped as an alternative to mj. But Kareem never even surpassed Wilt or Russell tbh. Kareem practically had the entire 1970s to himself and was lossing to Luke Waltons Dad, and a Faded Celtics team with grandpa Havlicek as the best player. Kareem is so Over rated its silly.

Anyone playing with magic was gonna get hive rings.

This. Kareem was disappointing during his peak, much like LeBron. Both good players. Longevity itself means very little in terms of all time greatness.

[Kblaze8855]

Kareem was a 35/17/5 player who would have a DPOY or two had the award existed at the time. He isnt Kareem because of longevity. He had a peak the equal of anyone...just so happens he was still handing out 45 point games when he should have been retired. Its nice...but it isnt what established him greatness.

There is no simple way. Not just numbers....especially when at times he deferred heavily trying to build up his lame ass teammates. He was still in his prime...with MVPs to come...only taking 16 and change shots in 40 minutes a night. It lowers his numbers....but does anyone think Kareem scores 23 a game in his prime because thats all hes capable of? They were trying to turn around the previous years where hed hang 40/18 70% shooting beatings to HOF bigs but lose because his guards had games giving up 55 points to the other teams 2 points along with 14-15 turnovers.

This is what it was being 70s Kareem:






Getting triple teamed and kicking out to guys who couldnt do anything...


and having 3-4 plays in a row if them not even being able to get the ball up the floor to him against a press:






It was a total joke.


You watch any of his 70s games its painfully obvious hes unstoppable vs all but the absolute best defenders like Wilt and Nate. Nate is the only guy he didnt really light up. He even gave wilt 50 though he had to work a lot harder and shoot worse than usual trying to prove a point. Anyone else it was just a debacle....

Some scored back on him(Reed for one) but nobody could defend him. He was also a top 2-3 rebounder...at times the best defender in the league....great passer out of the double and triple teams hed get once he got going. And unlike most who people say get tripled....you can actually watch Kareem get triple teams. Not hypothetical shit. Teams would collapse on his ass.

But he gets blamed for losing because his guards couldnt contain anyone or stop turning it over. Gus Williams looked like Pistol Pete vs those guys.

The awards are even worse. He won 6 MVPs....when the players voted for it....and the media stopped that when they got the vote. The media literally took a finals MVP. Voters come out and tell the world Kareem won the vote for the 1980 finals MVP but CBS changed it for the presentation....and nobody cares.

CBS...not the award voters....chose the finals MVP. Magic was handed the 1980 finals MVP for tv purposes...he was not voted it. But it sure isnt listed that way in history. That was the series that had Darryl Dawkins mom call him asking why he let that man score all those points on him. He literally sent a man to bed crying and people act like he wasnt that great because of a producer making them give the MVP to Magic....who did have a great game 6 obviously. But theres a reason they were in position to win it in 6. Kareems 40/15 with the game winner in game 5. He got injured....came back in and put in work. 30 seconds left tie game he gets the ball in the paint fronted by Dawkins....D collapses on him....he dunks on Dr.J who was one of 4 defenders around him...and 1....and hits the FT.

He came through...and people use the series against him because he didnt get actually handed finals MVP...though he was voted it.


Kareems numbers were great....except for when he tried to build up his teammates around 78 and 79 in the hopes of avoiding more playoff collapses...he won 6 MVPs and maybe should have had 8....he won 3 finals MVPs even though he wasnt handed all of them. Magic won another in a total team effort. In 82 Magic was the 8th leading scorer in the finals. Put up 16 points and 8 assists as they won. The team had 4 all stars along with Mcadoo and Cooper off the bench. Why would Kareem force up shots they didnt need to win? Again....hes punished for letting others play. Took 13 shots a game.

Not like he couldnt score more. He put up 26 a game winning finals MVP at 38. I strongly suspect he could still score years earlier. But why when youre cruising? They lost two games the whole playoffs in 82. Anyone think he took 7 shots in a game because he couldnt manage more?

How do you get hated on for winning while being unselfish and not stat padding? At this point I see why people stat pad. Guys on Kareem ass for not scoring points he had no reason to.....Bird too. Might as well demand the ball with the win secured so people 40 years later dont act like you had nothing to do with winning.

People want you to be unselfish....then use it against you. People want numbers...then blame you for hindering your teammates. Shoot less so your teammates improve....they say you didnt contribute as much even if you win. Guy leads the league in scoring...they say he didnt score like Wilt though. Leads in rebounds and blocks...didnt rebound or block shots like Russell though. Voted 3 finals MVPs..one is stolen....being unselfish cost him another as they still won....thats also a problem.

You dont have to think Kareem hes the GOAT. Hes one of at least 4 people with a case...any of them can be chosen without looking like an idiot. But some of the shit used against him is a joke.

Statpad kids. Dont sit down with a good lead and 12 points and win the ring. Its all about you. **** the team. 6 rings and 6 MVPs arent shit unless you demand the ball for 20-25 shots at the expense of your teammates playing to peak potential.

Dont be Duncan. We only talk like the "right way" matters. In the end they will use a 22ppg series against you even if you win. To this day people get on Duncan about not being finals MVP for a couple of those rings as if his unselfishness wasnt the whole foundation of the Spurs style and what allowed his role players to improve and accept hard coaching. Same shit happening with Steph who is the whole reason the Warriors style developed. But if he doesnt statpad vs a Cavs team that cant compete with them he cant get the finals MVP to validate himself. He shouldnt have taken only 16 shots in game 3 last year. Should have gunned away. They would have won the series either way but that 11 point game hurt his averages.

Get your stats. The W isnt enough without the stats.

Then people turn around and laugh at "Check my stats" shirts. In the end all anyone on places like this care about is your stats and awards. Even if your stats suffer to help team and your awards are literally stolen.

[sdot_thadon]

Kareem was a 35/17/5 player who would have a DPOY or two had the award existed at the time. He isnt Kareem because of longevity. He had a peak the equal of anyone...just so happens he was still handing out 45 point games when he should have been retired. Its nice...but it isnt what established him greatness.

There is no simple way. Not just numbers....especially when at times he deferred heavily trying to build up his lame ass teammates. He was still in his prime...with MVPs to come...only taking 16 and change shots in 40 minutes a night. It lowers his numbers....but does anyone think Kareem scores 23 a game in his prime because thats all hes capable of? They were trying to turn around the previous years where hed hang 40/18 70% shooting beatings to HOF bigs but lose because his guards had games giving up 55 points to the other teams 2 points along with 14-15 turnovers.

This is what it was being 70s Kareem:






Getting triple teamed and kicking out to guys who couldnt do anything...


and having 3-4 plays in a row if them not even being able to get the ball up the floor to him against a press:






It was a total joke.


You watch any of his 70s games its painfully obvious hes unstoppable vs all but the absolute best defenders like Wilt and Nate. Nate is the only guy he didnt really light up. He even gave wilt 50 though he had to work a lot harder and shoot worse than usual trying to prove a point. Anyone else it was just a debacle....

Some scored back on him(Reed for one) but nobody could defend him. He was also a top 2-3 rebounder...at times the best defender in the league....great passer out of the double and triple teams hed get once he got going. And unlike most who people say get tripled....you can actually watch Kareem get triple teams. Not hypothetical shit. Teams would collapse on his ass.

But he gets blamed for losing because his guards couldnt contain anyone or stop turning it over. Gus Williams looked like Pistol Pete vs those guys.

The awards are even worse. He won 6 MVPs....when the players voted for it....and the media stopped that when they got the vote. The media literally took a finals MVP. Voters come out and tell the world Kareem won the vote for the 1980 finals MVP but CBS changed it for the presentation....and nobody cares.

CBS...not the award voters....chose the finals MVP. Magic was handed the 1980 finals MVP for tv purposes...he was not voted it. But it sure isnt listed that way in history. That was the series that had Darryl Dawkins mom call him asking why he let that man score all those points on him. He literally sent a man to bed crying and people act like he wasnt that great because of a producer making them give the MVP to Magic....who did have a great game 6 obviously. But theres a reason they were in position to win it in 6. Kareems 40/15 with the game winner in game 5. He got injured....came back in and put in work. 30 seconds left tie game he gets the ball in the paint fronted by Dawkins....D collapses on him....he dunks on Dr.J who was one of 4 defenders around him...and 1....and hits the FT.

He came through...and people use the series against him because he didnt get actually handed finals MVP...though he was voted it.


Kareems numbers were great....except for when he tried to build up his teammates around 78 and 79 in the hopes of avoiding more playoff collapses...he won 6 MVPs and maybe should have had 8....he won 3 finals MVPs even though he wasnt handed all of them. Magic won another in a total team effort. In 82 Magic was the 8th leading scorer in the finals. Put up 16 points and 8 assists as they won. The team had 4 all stars along with Mcadoo and Cooper off the bench. Why would Kareem force up shots they didnt need to win? Again....hes punished for letting others play. Took 13 shots a game.

Not like he couldnt score more. He put up 26 a game winning finals MVP at 38. I strongly suspect he could still score years earlier. But why when youre cruising? They lost two games the whole playoffs in 82. Anyone think he took 7 shots in a game because he couldnt manage more?

How do you get hated on for winning while being unselfish and not stat padding? At this point I see why people stat pad. Guys on Kareem ass for not scoring points he had no reason to.....Bird too. Might as well demand the ball with the win secured so people 40 years later dont act like you had nothing to do with winning.

People want you to be unselfish....then use it against you. People want numbers...then blame you for hindering your teammates. Shoot less so your teammates improve....they say you didnt contribute as much even if you win. Guy leads the league in scoring...they say he didnt score like Wilt though. Leads in rebounds and blocks...didnt rebound or block shots like Russell though. Voted 3 finals MVPs..one is stolen....being unselfish cost him another as they still won....thats also a problem.

You dont have to think Kareem hes the GOAT. Hes one of at least 4 people with a case...any of them can be chosen without looking like an idiot. But some of the shit used against him is a joke.

Statpad kids. Dont sit down with a good lead and 12 points and win the ring. Its all about you. **** the team. 6 rings and 6 MVPs arent shit unless you demand the ball for 20-25 shots at the expense of your teammates playing to peak potential.

Dont be Duncan. We only talk like the "right way" matters. In the end they will use a 22ppg series against you even if you win. To this day people get on Duncan about not being finals MVP for a couple of those rings as if his unselfishness wasnt the whole foundation of the Spurs style and what allowed his role players to improve and accept hard coaching. Same shit happening with Steph who is the whole reason the Warriors style developed. But if he doesnt statpad vs a Cavs team that cant compete with them he cant get the finals MVP to validate himself. He shouldnt have taken only 16 shots in game 3 last year. Should have gunned away. They would have won the series either way but that 11 point game hurt his averages.

Get your stats. The W isnt enough without the stats.

Then people turn around and laugh at "Check my stats" shirts. In the end all anyone on places like this care about is your stats and awards. Even if your stats suffer to help team and your awards are literally stolen.

well damn, not the reply i expected but definitely the reply this thread needed. bodybag.

[Psileas]

Kareem's regular season numbers are wrong. Here are the real ones:

27.8 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.1 spg (probably more) 3.7 bpg (probably more).

Playoffs:

29.1 ppg (dropped below 30 ppg due to a significant FGA dropoff that season), 14.8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.2 spg (probably more), 3.2 bpg (probably more)

[3ball]

Kareem's regular season numbers are wrong. Here are the real ones:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]27.8 ppg[/COLOR], 13.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.1 spg (probably more) 3.7 bpg (probably more).

Playoffs:

29.1 ppg (dropped below 30 ppg due to a significant FGA dropoff that season), 14.8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.2 spg (probably more), 3.2 bpg (probably more)

^^^ That's the only typo in the OP, where I typed in his PER (26.5) instead of his ppg (27.8).. otherwise, the stats are accurate and MJ's advantage is significant and across the board

I didn't include assists or steals (advantage MJ), or rebounds or blocks (kaj) because those are position-dependant and the advanced stats show their impact without having this issue.. Again, MJ's advantage is significant and across the board

Kareem wasn't in the mainstream goat conversation AT ALL until people needed to diminish MJ to prop up lebron..

[3ball]

To kblaze -

I believe the gist of your post was to say that stats aren't everything and/or don't matter in this case, except MJ won much more than Kareem during this period where both guys were top dog

So MJ beats Kareem no matter how you look at it.

they both had their growing pains to develop young teammates, but MJ's stats and winning was better during those stretches too - MJ never had below an 8 seed during team development stages, while Kareem did several times despite the watered down era

Your post was one long-ass excuse
.

[Kblaze8855]

The word "excuse" is so overused...

Kareem doesnt need an excuse for anything. He came into the NBA on an expansion team that was I think second worst in the NBA....won like 60 games off the bat and contended for titles all but maybe 3 seasons of the next 20 years. He won 6 rings, 6 MVPs, and outscored everyone in history while at times leading the NBA in points, rebounds, blocks, and shooting. Hes far far faaaaaaaaar too accomplished to need excuses.

He doesnt have to win rings with teams that shouldnt win any more than Jordan or anyone else. Nobody rational is asking why he didnt win with a bad team that shouldnt even have gone as far as it did while putting up 35/18/5/4/2 on 61% in the playoffs. Talking about excuses...

Karl Malone needs excuses. Not a guy with 6 rings who had 2 bad teams in 20 years...one of the two because he missed a month and change with a broken hand and his team missed the playoffs by 2 games.

I remember someone on here said someone was making excuses for Russell. Guy lost once while healthy from 16-35 and people talking about excuses.

Some people are too accomplished for that shit.

Kareem. Jordan. Bill. They dont need excuses. Theres nothing to excuse unless perfection is the standard. Its like hating on Babe Ruth for having 7 world series wins instead of 10 and a few of their teams full of hall of famers missing the playoffs. At some point its just bitching to bitch.

Its no better than those 1-9 clowns acting like youre supposed to win with teams you do everything for because they are incompetent aside from 1-2 useful players who have more name recognition than impact at the time.

Jordan, Kareem, Bill, Magic, Bird, and so on even having haters is a joke to me.

Lets all go to a financial forum and talk about Warren Buffet being overrated because hes not as rich as a couple other people while were at it....

[3ball]

The word "excuse" is so overused...

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Kareem doesnt need an excuse for anything[/COLOR]. He came into the NBA on an expansion team that was I think second worst in the NBA....won like 60 games off the bat and contended for titles all but maybe 3 seasons of the next 20 years. He won 6 rings, 6 MVPs, and outscored everyone in history while at times leading the NBA in points, rebounds, blocks, and shooting. Hes far far faaaaaaaaar too accomplished to need excuses.

He doesnt have to win rings with teams that shouldnt win any more than Jordan or anyone else. Nobody rational is asking why he didnt win with a bad team that shouldnt even have gone as far as it did while putting up 35/18/5/4/2 on 61% in the playoffs. Talking about excuses...

Karl Malone needs excuses. Not a guy with 6 rings who had 2 bad teams in 20 years...one of the two because he missed a month and change with a broken hand and his team missed the playoffs by 2 games.

I remember someone on here said someone was making excuses for Russell. Guy lost once while healthy from 16-35 and people talking about excuses.

Some people are too accomplished for that shit.

Kareem. Jordan. Bill. They dont need excuses. Theres nothing to excuse unless perfection is the standard. Its like hating on Babe Ruth for having 7 world series wins instead of 10 and a few of their teams full of hall of famers missing the playoffs. At some point its just bitching to bitch.

Its no better than those 1-9 clowns acting like youre supposed to win with teams you do everything for because they are incompetent aside from 1-2 useful players who have more name recognition than impact at the time.

Jordan, Kareem, Bill, Magic, Bird, and so on even having haters is a joke to me.

Lets all go to a financial forum and talk about Warren Buffet being overrated because hes not as rich as a couple other people while were at it....

No one said Kareem needed an excuse to be an all-time great, and you described his accomplishments well in your post above

but kareem DOES need an excuse to be equal or better than MJ, which is what this thread is about.. the stats speak for themselves, and MJ won a lot more than Kareem as top dog too, despite Kareem having the most help ever (9 all-star teammates totaling 25 appearances alongside him, versus only 1 all-star teammate and 6 appearances for MJ's teamnates)

There's no comparison, and there WAS no comparison until lebron fans needed a way to diminish MJ - so Kareem was the natural option because he matched MJ's ring count

But MJ beats him in every way - stats, accolades, winning, domination, leadership, clutch, mvp's (11 to 8), all-defense

[Kblaze8855]

I swear you find a way to insert LeBron into everything. Kareem vs Jordan has nothing to do with Lebron. People on this forum were having that argument before Lebron was in the NBA. I was here. The argument was Jordan, Kareem, or Wilt. The first topic I made here was on Wilt after I read an argument on Kareem or Wilt for best ever. It was the 00/01 season. Jordan was in the nba and we didn