Where do you guys typically rate Scottie Pippen as a player?

[ShawkFactory]

on 34%...

So his 16/8/5 is worse than Mosgov's 14/8/3 on 55%..

can you do the math on how much better 55% is than 34%?

you're acting like you're content with 34%... that's the worst percentage I've ever seen anyone shoot - i've never seen ANYONE shoot that bad - have you?

Idc honestly, just poking holes in your "arguments". You round 15.7 points for Pippen down to 15. And now you seem to be rounding Mosgov's 1.5 BPG to 3? Pippen had 1.3. Mosgov had one more block in 6 games.

You're arguments can't be taken seriously if you're just a blatant liar.

And you also seem to be comparing the FG% of a perimeter player who took 99 shots in 6 games to a 7'2 big man who took 49 and was birdfeed by Lebron James as if it means something.

[kshutts1]

Has any player had so many obviously horrible series?

1996 Finals - 34% FG... which is literally WOAT... and only 15 ppg

1998 Finals - 8 and 6 points in final 2 games.. 15 ppg on 41% overall

1990 ECF - 2 points on 1-10 shooting in Game 7, costing Bulls championship

1994 ECSF - sits out final possession while Kukoc plays MJ-role and hits GW to save Bulls from going down 3-0

That depends on how you define "horrible". Since you're a box-score guy, then I can see where you're coming from. Box scores don't track defense, other than steals and blocks. They also don't track "setting up an offense" or "flow of a game".

I don't know enough stats to know if a star has ever had a worse statistical series. But I will say with confidence that there have been worse series considering more than just the stats.

[andgar923]

The trolls overrate/underrate him, but honestly, where does he rank in history? Are the Bulls just as successful without him? Is he a franchise caliber player or just a REALLY good #2 like Bean was in 2000?

With MJ as his mentor from day 1 or without?

Without MJ's tutelage we wouldn't know who he is.

[3ball]

Top 50 now? Uhh... I'll keep this to 5 names per line to make it easier to keep count. Only do the people that Pippen has zero case over.

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan
Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe
Oscar, West, Moses, Karl, KG
Barkley, Dirk, Mikan, Pettit, Baylor
Doc, Lebron, Wade...

I can't think of any other players that Pippen has NO case over. There are more that I personally rank ahead of Pippen, but there is more of a potential argument to be had.

And, as always, I may have forgotten some people.

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

[kshutts1]

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

[ClipperRevival]

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

Jesus Christ man. Your agenda to boost MJ makes you lose objectivity.

[TheMarkMadsen]

No he wasn't. Rasheed Wallace was the best player on the Blazers team. Easily.

easily.. easily..

Pippen led the team in assist, rebounds and steals throughout the playofss..

Pippen had an argument

[Smoke117]

MJ was more productive at the age of 39 and 40 than Pip was from 34 on. Pip just didn't have the iso game to lead a team as "the man". It's plain as night and day.

Meanwhile, MJ was by far and away still the best player in the world at the age of 33, 34 and 35. This fact always gets overlooked and it is historically impressive, especially for a wing player.

That Jordan is better than Pippen has never been in question, but he was also a much healthier player in general. Besides the broken foot he was blessed with a mostly healthy career. Partly because of the way he played, (for better or worse always putting his body on the line) Pippen was almost always dealing with some nagging injury by most seasons end. Considering he also played the most minutes of any player in the league for the entire decade...it's not surprising that his body wasn't very cooperative anymore at 33.

When Jordan left, Pip was the best perimeter player in the league for those two seasons, so I don't see why he had anything to prove after leaving chicago all beat up...he already proved he could lead a team successfully. In particular that 1995 team had no business being over .500 when Jordan came back but they were because of how dominant Scottie was defensively that season.

[kshutts1]

With MJ as his mentor from day 1 or without?

Without MJ's tutelage we wouldn't know who he is.

I think this theory of "tutelage" is overblown at times.

Where was Jordan's tutelage of everyone but Pippen? Fact is, Pippen would have been a great, great player anyway.

Jordan may have helped him become better than he would have on his own, but Pippen would have still been great. And Pippen may have helped Jordan be better than Jordan would have been on his own, also.

[3ball]

Since you're a box-score guy

You think I need the boxscores?.. Every single game that I referenced, I watched LIVE on tv.

I only list the boxscores for you guys, since it's more credible than me saying "hey guys, I watched all the games back then... Take my word for it.. This is how it was"... You guys would never believe me then..

So I provide boxscore data in the instances where the stats are horrific enough that game flow doesn't matter - such as the boxscores showing Pippen was 1-10 with 2 points in Game 7 of ECF... Or that he had 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games of 1998 Finals.. Or that he shot 34% in 1996 Finals, which is worst of all time.. Or that he refused to enter the game on the final play of 1994 ECSF..

This is enough information to let ANYONE know that Pippen played like shit in these instances..

Stats also don't track "setting up an offense" or "flow of a game".

If you want a second-by-second game flow feel, as if you were actually there - here's Ernie Johnson describing Pippen's meltdown in the 1994 2nd Round, AS IT HAPPENED:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


Here's Pippen HIMSELF saying he choked in 1990 ECSF and played poorly due to the "pressure":

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=367910

From the horse's mouth...

[Smoke117]

With MJ as his mentor from day 1 or without?

Without MJ's tutelage we wouldn't know who he is.

Gotta love these arguments...Jordan made Pippen...it wasn't like he was drafted 5th overall...it wasn't like the Pistons GM BEFORE he was even drafted called him a future super star in the NBA...no, he was nothing till Jordan shaped him into a star out of shit.

[kshutts1]

You think I need the boxscores?.. Every single game that I referenced, I watched LIVE on tv.

Are you not the very same person that said you haven't watched any games since the 90s or something like that?

If I have you mistaken with someone else, I apologize.

But the rest of my point still stands.

Edit: Some poster, I thought it was you, started a thread that said they didn't watch basketball, and just used advanced analysis to make predictions. Then listed a ton of predictions that they had made that came to be true. So again, if that's not you, I do apologize for the mistake. And again, I still stand by the rest of my argument, in that Pippen's stats may not have been great, but his impact was, due to other factors.

[ShawkFactory]

You think I need the boxscores?.. Every single game that I referenced, I watched LIVE on tv.

I only list the boxscores for you guys, since it's more credible than me saying "hey guys, I watched all the games back then... Take my word for it.. This is how it was"... You guys would never believe me then..

So I provide boxscore data in the instances where the stats are horrific enough that game flow doesn't matter - such as the boxscores showing Pippen was 1-10 with 2 points in Game 7 of ECF... Or that he had 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games of 1998 Finals.. Or that he shot 34% in 1996 Finals, which is worst of all time.. Or that he refused to enter the game on the final play of 1994 ECSF..

This is enough information to let ANYONE know that Pippen played like shit in these instances..



If you want a second-by-second game flow feel, as if you were actually there - here's Ernie Johnson describing Pippen's meltdown in the 1994 2nd Round, AS IT HAPPENED:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


Here's Pippen HIMSELF saying he choked in 1990 ECSF and played poorly due to the "pressure":

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=367910

From the horse's mouth...

Leaving out 96 there. Hmmmmmmmmmm

[3ball]

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