How underrated is Kevin Johnson?

[No_Look604]

His dunk on Hakeem is one of my all-time favorites.

[TheCorporation]

To be honest with u, I think all the guys listed had better careers than KJ. Peak wise, KJ was better than all of them except Tiny. But career or GOAT wise, KJ ACTUALLY had the inferior career to all of those guys. KJ's didn't have the longevity to be rated ahead of those guys on a GOAT list. Lenny and Tiny were on the NBA's official 50 Greatest List. NOBODY thought KJ was an omission at all.

There is a difference between peak and GOAT status. Peak wise, KJ could arguably be a top 10-12 PG of all time. But GOAT wise, he's MUCH MUCH further down the charts. At this point, CP3 had ALREADY passed KJ and others on that list by.

Yeah, I think CP3 was ranked 46 I want to say?

[mistergreens]

His dunk on Hakeem is one of my all-time favorites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVcSndz52DE

Yes, one of my favorite dunks of all time.

[Pointguard]

When it comes to comparing KJ to guys like Westbrook and Rose, we gotta keep in mind that those guys have 2-3 inches on KJ. And are around the 190-200 pound mark. So they are gonna be more powerful finishing at the rack. BUT in KJ's era, he was THE GOLD STANDARD for a freak athletic PG.

And for guards 6'1 and under, KJ doesn't take a backseat to ANY great PG in terms of athletic ability. Among the elite small guards 6'1 and under, KJ, Iverson, and even Isiah were the most athletic in my opinion. For guys who are or were average to good NBA players u of course got the guys like Nate and Spud.

Spudd was a contemporary and had more explosion than KJ, that was part of the problem. Spudd dunked on Bol once and that's close to a four foot difference after you get thru arm-lengths and such. You take out KJ's explosion and he's not that special athletically.

Size shouldn't be that big of deal athletically. KJ for the 6 foot and under guys wasn't as fast or quick as AI. Size should work as a negative for those categories but Rose might be the best in those categories. KJ couldn't jump as high as Nate or Spudd and I wouldn't call him more explosive than them either. Agility, has nothing to do with size and Rose kills in that area. Balance, coordination and dexertity has nothing to do with size either. Now KJ was fast and quick but maybe not to the people who seen Archibald and Murphy. So you have to exaggerate his explosion to have him as a great standout at his time. But there was Spudd...

While I will say he was impressive, but if Hakeem has two or three fouls on him, KJ wouldn't be talked about as much athletically. I just did a thread about athletic attributes last week. And there are different ways to stand out.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=383901

[LAZERUSS]

Just ask Hakeem...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifx_...U&spfreload=10

[bizil]

Spudd was a contemporary and had more explosion than KJ, that was part of the problem. Spudd dunked on Bol once and that's close to a four foot difference after you get thru arm-lengths and such. You take out KJ's explosion and he's not that special athletically.

Size shouldn't be that big of deal athletically. KJ for the 6 foot and under guys wasn't as fast or quick as AI. Size should work as a negative for those categories but Rose might be the best in those categories. KJ couldn't jump as high as Nate or Spudd and I wouldn't call him more explosive than them either. Agility, has nothing to do with size and Rose kills in that area. Balance, coordination and dexertity has nothing to do with size either. Now KJ was fast and quick but maybe not to the people who seen Archibald and Murphy. So you have to exaggerate his explosion to have him as a great standout at his time. But there was Spudd...

While I will say he was impressive, but if Hakeem has two or three fouls on him, KJ wouldn't be talked about as much athletically. I just did a thread about athletic attributes last week. And there are different ways to stand out.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=383901

U make some good points. But KJ still qualifies as a freakish athlete. And of course guys like Spud and Nate are even more impressive in a sense. Because they are 5'6 and 5'7. BUT IN GAME SITUATIONS, KJ was more dominant with his athletic ability than they were. I'm talking about game situations. I'm not talking about dunk contests.

In games, KJ has WAY MORE POSTER material than Nate and Spud COMBINED! Quite simply, KJ's athletic ability in games situations SMOKES anything Nate or Spud did. It's about how u apply your athletic ability TO CONSISTENTLY MAKE THE WOW PLAYS TIME AFTER TIME!!

When it comes to AI, he wasn't as powerful finishing at the rack as KJ. Sure AI was faster. But KJ was EASILY ABOVE AVERAGE in terms of speed and quickness to the rack. What made KJ unique from guys like Isiah, Tiny, and Murphy was his ability to finish over the top of big centers in a dominant fashion. He took what they did to the next level. It's about evolution.

And size has a LOT TO DO WITH DUNKING ON BIG MEN CONSISTENTLY!! If u listed the top 10-20 in game dunkers among GREAT PERIMETER PLAYERS, they are ALL at least 6'3 to 6'4 and up! When people say freakish athletic ability, the things they think about are speed, hops, power, explosion, etc.:

MJ
Vince
Dr. J
Nique
David Thompson
Westbrook
Wade
T Mac
Kobe
Drexler
Bron

All of these guys are AT LEAST 6'3 and up. In game wise, guys like Nate and Spud aren't gonna be anywhere close to these guys.

[Pointguard]

U make some good points. But KJ still qualifies as a freakish athlete. And of course guys like Spud and Nate are even more impressive in a sense. Because they are 5'6 and 5'7. BUT IN GAME SITUATIONS, KJ was more dominant with his athletic ability than they were. I'm talking about game situations. I'm not talking about dunk contests.

In games, KJ has WAY MORE POSTER material than Nate and Spud COMBINED! Quite simply, KJ's athletic ability in games situations SMOKES anything Nate or Spud did. It's about how u apply your athletic ability TO CONSISTENTLY MAKE THE WOW PLAYS TIME AFTER TIME!!

That's what I'm telling you. KJ wasn't the everyday guy doing this. That's simply not true. Guys on here are saying he's in Rose and Westbrook category (not you, but ShaqisGoat). He's not in AI's category of Wow plays either. He dunked hard much like young AI - once every two or three weeks... maybe. Once in awhile KJ caught people napping like AI did. He wasn't doing this every game like Westbrook and them - that's not true. I went to five AI games and not once was there not two wow, plays due to his athleticism. Much of what you are saying is true.

AI would have dunked more but they punished him at a whole different level than KJ was. But he didn't lack for hard dunks or spectacular ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaa1n_idHO4

When it comes to AI, he wasn't as powerful finishing at the rack as KJ. Sure AI was faster. But KJ was EASILY ABOVE AVERAGE in terms of speed and quickness to the rack. What made KJ unique from guys like Isiah, Tiny, and Murphy was his ability to finish over the top of big centers in a dominant fashion. He took what they did to the next level. It's about evolution.

Thats just an aspect of athleticism. Lebron is considered a better athlete than Barkley and Barkley finished with more authority. It has everything to do with with Lebron's great coordination, speed, dexterity, agility, or in AI's case quickness. Vince explodes with great authority but he isn't the athlete Pippen was.

And size has a LOT TO DO WITH DUNKING ON BIG MEN CONSISTENTLY!! If u listed the top 10-20 in game dunkers among GREAT PERIMETER PLAYERS, they are ALL at least 6'3 to 6'4 and up! When people say freakish athletic ability, the things they think about are speed, hops, power, explosion, etc.:

MJ
Vince
Dr. J
Nique
David Thompson
Westbrook
Wade
T Mac
Kobe
Drexler
Bron

All of these guys are AT LEAST 6'3 and up. In game wise, guys like Nate and Spud aren't gonna be anywhere close to these guys.

Size definitely helps but Spudd is 7 to 8 inches smaller than KJ - Spudd dunked on Manute Bol so he did go over the tallest player ever. KJ is two inches smaller than Rose and Westbrook. KJ is two inches taller than AI and he wasn't the athlete AI was. As I said AI used his speed, quickness, balance, co-ordination, dexterity all the time.

I see your point about the evolution and his day and time - he represented it well. I just did a thread on athleticism and how the word gets misused.

[bizil]

That's what I'm telling you. KJ wasn't the everyday guy doing this. That's simply not true. Guys on here are saying he's in Rose and Westbrook category (not you, but ShaqisGoat). He's not in AI's category of Wow plays either. He dunked hard much like young AI - once every two or three weeks... maybe. Once in awhile KJ caught people napping like AI did. He wasn't doing this every game like Westbrook and them - that's not true. I went to five AI games and not once was there not two wow, plays due to his athleticism. Much of what you are saying is true.

AI would have dunked more but they punished him at a whole different level than KJ was. But he didn't lack for hard dunks or spectacular ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaa1n_idHO4

Thats just an aspect of athleticism. Lebron is considered a better athlete than Barkley and Barkley finished with more authority. It has everything to do with with Lebron's great coordination, speed, dexterity, agility, or in AI's case quickness. Vince explodes with great authority but he isn't the athlete Pippen was.

Size definitely helps but Spudd is 7 to 8 inches smaller than KJ - Spudd dunked on Manute Bol so he did go over the tallest player ever. KJ is two inches smaller than Rose and Westbrook. KJ is two inches taller than AI and he wasn't the athlete AI was. As I said AI used his speed, quickness, balance, co-ordination, dexterity all the time.

I see your point about the evolution and his day and time - he represented it well. I just did a thread on athleticism and how the word gets misused.

I agree that u can't put KJ on Westbrook's or Rose's level in terms of athletic ability. Those are probably the two most athletic PG's of all time. But in general, I consider KJ a freak athletic PG. That was my main point of contention. When it comes to KJ and AI, my main point was KJ was known to dunk on big guys more often than AI. In terms of getting to the rack in general, AI was faster and quicker than KJ. No doubt about that. For small guards, AI is the GOLD STANDARD for WOW plays and overall dominance in general.

[4 Inches]

Didn't KJ rape some woman ? Funny how he's president now.

[houston]

he was a choke artist

[Pointguard]

I agree that u can't put KJ on Westbrook's or Rose's level in terms of athletic ability. Those are probably the two most athletic PG's of all time. But in general, I consider KJ a freak athletic PG. That was my main point of contention. When it comes to KJ and AI, my main point was KJ was known to dunk on big guys more often than AI. In terms of getting to the rack in general, AI was faster and quicker than KJ. No doubt about that. For small guards, AI is the GOLD STANDARD for WOW plays and overall dominance in general.

You are right. KJ was the standard for dunk on a head, little guy for a good minute there. He, had a great last step. He caught Mark Eaton too. Love to see a little guy keep ascending.

We somehow forgot to mention Darrell Griffith and David Thompson who weren't as fast or quick as KJ, but were about the same height as Rose and Westbrook, and who have arguments of getting higher than them. Neither was a point guard.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Surprising how many casual fans don't know him. Although, I know a Suns fan who has his jersey.

[Dragonyeuw]

KJ was the prototype hyper-athletic point guard that guys like Westbrook/Rose/Wall have taken to the next level. His prime was short due to injuries but at his best he was right up there with the elites. Had a great first step, crossover, and very good mid-range shooter.

[bizil]

KJ was the prototype hyper-athletic point guard that guys like Westbrook/Rose/Wall have taken to the next level. His prime was short due to injuries but at his best he was right up there with the elites. Had a great first step, crossover, and very good mid-range shooter.

Well said! The guys u named took what KJ did to the next level. In his era, KJ was THE FREAK ATHLETE PG. It is a shame his prime was cut short by injuries. It's interesting that small guards like KJ, Isiah, and AI all were past their primes and beat up in their early 30's. For many of the great players, they are still in their primes or even peak in their early 30's.

I think u could even make the case that KJ's athletic ability revolutionized the PG spot at the time. Before him, there weren't small guards (6'1 and under) dunking on big PF's and C's as consistently as KJ. And the guys like Westbrook and Rose have FOR SURE taken what KJ was doing to the next level. Two PG's who were athletic beasts in the early 2000s were Baron Davis and Steve Francis.

[bizil]

You are right. KJ was the standard for dunk on a head, little guy for a good minute there. He, had a great last step. He caught Mark Eaton too. Love to see a little guy keep ascending.

We somehow forgot to mention Darrell Griffith and David Thompson who weren't as fast or quick as KJ, but were about the same height as Rose and Westbrook, and who have arguments of getting higher than them. Neither was a point guard.

Yep Griffith and Thompson were BEASTS! I really think they were the first above the rim freak athletes at the SG spot. Thompson was an absolute MONSTER at his peak. So much so he's arguably a top 10 SG of all time peak wise. At one point in the 70's, was neck and neck with Gervin and Maravich as the best SG in the world.

And Griffith was likely the first SG to combine very good to great three point shooting with freak athletic ability. I think's one of the best SG's to never make an All Star Game.