Pippen or Worthy?

[SHAQisGOAT]

So if you're drafting a team and don't have Jordan or Magic/Kareem already there who you got?

If I don't know anything about the players I'm "getting" for my team? Definitely Pippen... Like I've said, he was just a better, more impactful overall player; so you clearly gotta roll with that.

[Pushxx]

Gotta take Pippen whose versatility on both sides of the ball puts him a tick above Worthy.

[bizil]

GOAT wise, Pippen no doubt about it. Peak wise I say Pippen too. Due to his all around game, Pippen's 18-21 points a night on the Lakers would have been more impactful than Worthy's 18-21 points a night. In both cases, each guy would be the third option.

If an SF like Bird, Nique, English, or King was on the Lakers, they very well would have been the FIRST SCORING OPTION for the Lakers once the mid 80's hit. Kareem was at his tailend prime. So Riley may have let a Bird, King, or Nique be the top scoring option to conserve Kareem's energy.

THE FACT he didn't do that with Worthy is a bit telling... Even at 38 years old, Kareem was the Lakers leading scorer. If Bird, Nique, or King was on the squad, that wouldn't have been the case AT ALL. Not a knock to Cap, but those guys were at their peak (Bird, King) or approaching it (Nique). It would have allowed Kareem to save even more energy for playoff time.

The only guys u can argue over Pippen peak or better player wise at the SF HAS TO BE A DOMINANT SCORER. It has to be guys like a Bird, Durant, Dr. J, Hondo, Bron, Baylor, Barry, Nique, etc. As great as Worthy was, he wasn't on that level of scorer. He was on that next tier of scoring SF's.

[And1AllDay]

I shouldn't have to write this up, but *sigh* I will

When MJ left the Bulls in 93' it was up to Pippen to carry the load as the #1 guy.

How did the team fare?

Bulls in 93' w/ MJ : 57 wins
Bulls in 94' w/o MJ: 55 wins

Just sayin...

[3ball]

Worthy was a bit better scorer

you guys don't know SHIT about the game

[Kvnzhangyay]

you guys don't know SHIT about the game

they know more than you though...

[3ball]

Bulls in 93' w/ MJ : 57 wins
Bulls in 94' w/o MJ: 55 wins

A lot of teams win 55 in the regular season, but then prove to be weak, 2nd Round teams in the playoffs - that's what happened with these Bulls - they fell from 3-peat dynasty with MJ, to ordinary 2nd Round team without.

Do you think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in 1994 if they hadn't 3-peated first?

Of course not.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty FIRST, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But you guys don't understand basketball and think players are all robots - i.e. Pippen could've led the Bulls to 55 wins in ANY season, not just 1994 - the reality that the Bulls had acquired a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork means nothing to you guys.. You guys learned about the game by looking at stats, so you literally don't have the capacity to understand these kinds of qualitative aspects to the game.

I remember some clueless stat nerd tell me one time - "There is no such thing as a player or team getting "hot"... Momentum doesn't exist"... WTF?... Why the **** is it a word then?... Why are confidence, optimism, comfort and adrenaline (things that make up momentum) words that exist?... Don't we all do better WITH these things and don't these things all fluctuate?.. Like, this guy literally only understood things that you could quantify with stats - he thought this way of thinking was actually smart, when it couldn't be dumber, more pathetic, or lead to more incorrect conclusions.
.

[AirFederer]

Pippen.

[3ball]

Pippen.

It's hilarious - because you guys would all be wrong if we could put Worthy and Pippen on 100 different, randomly-selected teams.

First lets imagine what that would be like for Pippen - for about 10 of those teams, adding Pippen would result in a championship - the ones that have MJ, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron - all the guys that have won in the last 25 years.

But on every other team, the team would be ordinary - most teams would be lottery with Pippen as the #1 option - you guys don't seem to understand that the 1994 Bulls had the very best supporting cast Pippen could ever have as a #1 option: a 3-peat caliber supporting cast - remember, MJ isn't supposed to be there - it's PIPPEN'S team now, and you can't do better than a 3-peat supporting cast... [COLOR="Indigo"]Keep in mind that Pippen's 3-peat supporting cast was unique in that ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.[/COLOR]

Statistically, Pippen would be a 20 ppg scorer (on mostly lottery teams).. And even alongside MJ, it took Pippen several years to become an All-NBA defender - without MJ, who can say he wouldn't be one of the MANY great athletes in history that never developed the focus and work ethic it takes to be a great defender?.. I promise you that MJ is a big reason (if not the primary reason) Pippen developed the way he did.

You guys are all biased looking back after the fact - it's amazing that you give props to a guy that rode coattails to win 6 rings - he was never mvp, fmvp or anywhere NEAR these things.

Now lets look at Worthy - a lot of his teams would be lottery too, but Worthy was a legit #1 option that could average 25+ ppg.. So he was capable of having a BETTER supporting cast built around him than the 2nd Round peak we saw out of Pippen.

Worthy was literally top 10 all-time when it came to his ability out of the triple-threat - it's hard for me to think of guys that were more deadly.. His 1-on-1 ability was top 25 all-time - he was one of those guys that was so good, he could chew up a defender in 1-2 seconds.. Only a few guys had that kind of ability.

CLIFFS: So yeah, if I was drafting a player to fit on 100 supporting casts, I go with Worthy, because he's a better #1 option, and therefore better supporting casts can be built around him.
.

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen, no doubt. I think Pippen vs McHale is a better discussion.

Worthy was more reliable in the clutch, his performance in game 7 of the '88 Finals gets overlooked, he played his best game of his career in the biggest game possible, this guy always stepped it up in the clutch. With that being said Pippen was simply better because of his versatility, one of the greatest defenders ever, also a 20-22 ppg type of guy and he was also one of the best passing forwards in the game. Pippen was just flat out more versatile.

[1987_Lakers]

CLIFFS: So yeah, if I was drafting a player to fit on 100 supporting casts, I go with Worthy, because he's a better #1 option, and therefore better supporting casts can be built around him.
.

How can one be so bias?

[ImKobe]

Pippen is a more complete player to me. Worthy is the better scorer but Pippen can run an offense and play GOAT-tier defense, whether on the perimeter or in the post.

[3ball]

How can one be so bias?

I'm biased?...

You guys have NO IDEA whether the 7.9 ppg, scrawny, weak-minded rookie would develop into a great player if he wasn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

[COLOR="Navy"]Whereas we know for a FACT that Worthy would be a boss no matter where he went[/COLOR]... And without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm biased?...

You guys have NO IDEA whether the 7.9 ppg, scrawny, weak-minded rookie would develop into a great player if he wasn't drafted to the Bulls alongside MJ.

[COLOR="Navy"]Whereas we know for a FACT that Worthy would be a boss no matter where he went[/COLOR]... And without Magic or Kareem, Worthy would average 25+ ppg as a #1 option... Since he'd be a better #1 option, that means his supporting cast could be better than Pippen's.

Pippen was ****ing lucky in 1994 - he played with the ONLY 3-peat caliber supporting cast where he could be the #1 option.. ANY other multiple-champion supporting cast would be too good for Pippen to be the #1 option.

I'm not sure Worthy would have averaged 25+ ppg as the #1 option. In '92 the year when Magic was retired his averages pretty much stayed the same. Actually by the '87 season Worthy was the Lakers #2 guy, Kareem wasn't not even cracking 20 ppg in his last 3 years and Worthy was still at the 20 ppg mark.

[bizil]

I'm not sure Worthy would have averaged 25+ ppg as the #1 option. In '92 the year when Magic was retired his averages pretty much stayed the same. Actually by the '87 season Worthy was the Lakers #2 guy, Kareem wasn't not even cracking 20 ppg in his last 3 years and Worthy was still at the 20 ppg mark.

Great points! Scoring wise, Worthy wasn't on the level of a Bird, Nique, King, or English in that era. Those guys were threats to lead the league in scoring. I think Worthy was more in that second tier. Even as the PG, Magic averaged more points than Worthy most seasons.

If Bird or Nique were in Worthy's place, that wouldn't have been the case. Magic would have NEVER averaged more points in a season than those two. Magic would have been happily dropping them dimes while they dominate scoring.