Convince someone unfamiliar with the sport of an Individuals Greatness

[ArbitraryWater]

Simply talk about one individual that you care about or think is the GOAT, that others may not know, just to have them know a bit more.. just fun.

Obviously they can't really tell if that guy is the GOAT or anything, since they don't know the other athletes from the sport. But to maybe compare what that individual did in terms of greatness and impressiveness to someone from a sport you DO know, like me saying, 'Walder is the Jordan of Table Tennis'. In a different sense/manner as you will find out, but sheer talent and domination at his peak. There really is no one with a similar career path to Waldner.

So, I know there are not alot of Table Tennis fans, so I will talk about Table Tennis player Jan Ove Waldner.

Jan Ove Waldner
Born: 1965, Stockholm

Nicknames:
"Mozart of table tennis"
"Evergreen tree"





I have a particular love for Jan Ove Waldner, not just because he was god gifted, but because he had personality disease. Waldner thought he was 2 different persons, and had a therapist to deal with it.

In 1974, when he was 9 years old he was first invited to a training camp by a club in Sweden, he didn't like being that far away from his family, but when his mother came to get him he told her he wanted to stay, since there was a big tournament the next day.

3 days after his 12th birthday, he had his first game in the top Swedish Table Tennis league. Few weeks later he won his first match against Dennis Pettersson, while being 140 cm tall.

In 1980 he was for the first time in the Table Tennis Mecca, in China. He played infront of 12.000 people in the Shanghai Open, and for the first time makes experience with the Asian work ethic. He plays alot of different teenagers, loses alot, and wins alot of experience. And his desire to winning continues burning.

In 1982 at the age of 16 years old, he participates at the European Championships!

Waldner beats former World Champion Stellan Bengtsson, and moves all the way to the FINAL, where he plays against huge favorite, the also Swedish, Mikael Appelgren. Waldner wins the first 2 sets, and ends up losing barely (TT matches are first to 4 sets/best of 7).

Obviously, not Appelgren, but Waldner is making the headlines. National coach Korpa says:
"I have never seen such a complete player at this age, he can beat everyone, also the Chinese. His variability, perfekt services, pace changers will have to be dealt with by coaches for years to come. How can we answer that?"

In 1984 he wins the 'Europe Top 12', a tournament he would win an overall 7 times, and 4 times twice, a record.

In 1987, 21 year old Waldner makes his first big move at the World Championship.

Waldner, suffering from a virus, over 40

[ArbitraryWater]

Sorry, wrong forum, I guess... although it could be NBA related if one would try to compare the achievements to an NBA player.

Never the less, feel free to move to the OTC lounge, please don't delete.

[ArbitraryWater]

(16 at the EC Final)

[rmt]

Roger Federer

Record - stands alone
17 Grand Slam Titles
3 GS per year - 3 times
2 GS per year - 2 times
26 GS Finals
37 GS Semi-Finals
45 GS Quarter-Finals
10 Consecutive GS F
23 Consecutive GS SF
36 Consecutive GS QF
63 Consecutive GS appearances
291 GS match wins
147 GS hard court match wins
Reached all 4 GS Finals (in a calendar year) 3 times

302 weeks at #1 - record
237 Consecutive weeks at #1 - record
Year End Championships - 6 - tied for #1
Most Wimbledon singles - 7 - tied for #1
Most US Open singles - 5 - tied for #1

Too much to list - still #2 in the world (turns 34 next month) - BEAUTIFUL tennis - longest/highest peak + longevity

[Prime_Shaq]

Roger Federer

Record - stands alone
17 Grand Slam Titles
3 GS per year - 3 times
2 GS per year - 2 times
26 GS Finals
37 GS Semi-Finals
45 GS Quarter-Finals
10 Consecutive GS F
23 Consecutive GS SF
36 Consecutive GS QF
63 Consecutive GS appearances
291 GS match wins
147 GS hard court match wins
Reached all 4 GS Finals (in a calendar year) 3 times

302 weeks at #1 - record
237 Consecutive weeks at #1 - record
Year End Championships - 6 - tied for #1
Most Wimbledon singles - 7 - tied for #1
Most US Open singles - 5 - tied for #1

Too much to list - still #2 in the world (turns 34 next month) - BEAUTIFUL tennis - longest/highest peak + longevity

[Yoda]

Roger Federer


17 Grand Slam Titles

A lot of pancakes that is. Convinced of his greatness I am.

[Milbuck]

Roger Federer

Record - stands alone
17 Grand Slam Titles
3 GS per year - 3 times
2 GS per year - 2 times
26 GS Finals
37 GS Semi-Finals
45 GS Quarter-Finals
10 Consecutive GS F
23 Consecutive GS SF
36 Consecutive GS QF
63 Consecutive GS appearances
291 GS match wins
147 GS hard court match wins
Reached all 4 GS Finals (in a calendar year) 3 times

302 weeks at #1 - record
237 Consecutive weeks at #1 - record
Year End Championships - 6 - tied for #1
Most Wimbledon singles - 7 - tied for #1
Most US Open singles - 5 - tied for #1

Too much to list - still #2 in the world (turns 34 next month) - BEAUTIFUL tennis - longest/highest peak + longevity

10-23 career record against his biggest rival (30% win%)

[ArbitraryWater]

Roger Federer

Record - stands alone
17 Grand Slam Titles
3 GS per year - 3 times
2 GS per year - 2 times
26 GS Finals
37 GS Semi-Finals
45 GS Quarter-Finals
10 Consecutive GS F
23 Consecutive GS SF
36 Consecutive GS QF
63 Consecutive GS appearances
291 GS match wins
147 GS hard court match wins
Reached all 4 GS Finals (in a calendar year) 3 times

302 weeks at #1 - record
237 Consecutive weeks at #1 - record
Year End Championships - 6 - tied for #1
Most Wimbledon singles - 7 - tied for #1
Most US Open singles - 5 - tied for #1

Too much to list - still #2 in the world (turns 34 next month) - BEAUTIFUL tennis - longest/highest peak + longevity

I think Rafa's story would be a bit more heroic and interesting imo... but after the OP I won't bother with that, get it done Milbuck!

[ArbitraryWater]

Also, interesting comment by TT player Michael Maze, talking about table tennis compared to other sports, why it may not be as entertaining to a casual.

In Tennis, you hit a big serve and bam, ace, service winner, everyone can see it, you have a device right there calculating the miles..

Nobody in Table Tennis will calcuate the spin on a serve, and many won't even see it.

[rmt]

10-23 career record against his biggest rival (30% win%)

I agree that Nadal is a BAD matchup for Federer, but context is a must. Federer got to the finals on clay/slow surfaces to play the Clay GOAT, and Nadal failed to get to finals on fast surfaces. Nadal is fodder for the rest of the field on fast surfaces (see his EARLY exits at Wimbledon the past few years) while Federer gets to the Finals. The majority of their matches are on slow surfaces favorable to Nadal.

Nadal
14 Grand Slams - 9 of them at French Open on clay.

Yes, he is the Clay GOAT, but elsewhere, he's not GOAT material - 5 GS on all non-clay surfaces. Federer's great on ALL surfaces - 7 Wimbledons, 5 US Opens, 5 Australian Opens, 1 French Open (of course, he was beaten 4 times in FO Finals and once in SF by Nadal).

[ArbitraryWater]

I agree that Nadal is a BAD matchup for Federer, but context is a must. Federer got to the finals on clay/slow surfaces to play the Clay GOAT, and Nadal failed to get to finals on fast surfaces. Nadal is fodder for the rest of the field on fast surfaces (see his EARLY exits at Wimbledon the past few years) while Federer gets to the Finals. The majority of their matches are on slow surfaces favorable to Nadal.

Nadal
14 Grand Slams - 9 of them at French Open on clay.

Yes, he is the Clay GOAT, but elsewhere, he's not GOAT material - 5 GS on all non-clay surfaces. Federer's great on ALL surfaces - 7 Wimbledons, 5 US Opens, 5 Australian Opens, 1 French Open (of course, he was beaten 4 times in FO Finals and once in SF by Nadal).

From 2006-2011 Rafa made 5 straight Wimbledon finals, would have been 6 if not for an injury that kept him from participating in 2009.
How is that not GOAT tier?

Another injury pretty much robbed him from the 2014 Australian Open, which would have given him both multiple US and AO titles, while missing/losing plenty of these tournaments due to injuries.

Looks sufficient to me.

[Milbuck]

I agree that Nadal is a BAD matchup for Federer, but context is a must. Federer got to the finals on clay/slow surfaces to play the Clay GOAT, and Nadal failed to get to finals on fast surfaces. Nadal is fodder for the rest of the field on fast surfaces (see his EARLY exits at Wimbledon the past few years) while Federer gets to the Finals. The majority of their matches are on slow surfaces favorable to Nadal.

Nadal from age 18-21 during Fed's peak of 04-07 won 3 slams on clay, made 2 finals on grass, and 2 QF on HC. Federer from age 18-21? 2 QF. 1 on grass, 1 on clay.

So we're penalizing Nadal for not making final after final on every surface in his late teens and early 20s during Federer's peak, despite Federer doing essentially nothing of note at the same age.

And Nadal doesn't just have the advantage on clay. Dude is 9-6 against Fed on HC and down just 1-2 on grass, where one of the losses was a 5 setter. And all 3 grass court matches were from 06-08, 2 years into and 1 year right out of Fed's peak, while Nadal was in his late teens-early 20s. Fed for all his multi-surface dominance is just one lost set from having a losing record to Nadal on all 3 surfaces.

From 2006-2011 Rafa made 5 straight Wimbledon finals, would have been 6 if not for an injury that kept him from participating in 2009.
How is that not GOAT tier?

Another injury pretty much robbed him from the 2014 Australian Open, which would have given him both multiple US and AO titles, while missing/losing plenty of these tournaments due to injuries.

Looks sufficient to me.

I don't think people understand just how good Rafa used to be on grass. It's been well documented how his knee issues, even when they're not directly hurting him, are exacerbated by the unevenness of grass courts.

Like I don't understand what people think is going on with him, the guy didn't just magically go from a 2x Wimbledon champion and 5x finalist to a grass scrub, like he "forgot" how to play on grass, he's just physically limited on that surface.

Though for the 2014 AO Final I will say Wawrinka had that one with or without Rafa's back injury. Dude was on god mode that night, well deserved trophy.

[rmt]

From 2006-2011 Rafa made 5 straight Wimbledon finals, would have been 6 if not for an injury that kept him from participating in 2009.
How is that not GOAT tier?

Another injury pretty much robbed him from the 2014 Australian Open, which would have given him both multiple US and AO titles, while missing/losing plenty of these tournaments due to injuries.

Looks sufficient to me.

Injuries are always an excuse for Nadal - he suddenly comes up with a back injury when he's down a set and break to Wawrinka, but he's recovered enough from said injury to win a clay court tournament a couple of weeks later - suuuure.

Are you saying that his 23-10 head to head record vs Federer, his 14 GSs of which 9 are on clay and best of all, his RECORD 248 WEEKS at #2 qualifies him for GOAT over Federer's resume?

[ArbitraryWater]

Injuries are always an excuse for Nadal - he suddenly comes up with a back injury when he's down a set and break to Wawrinka, but he's recovered enough from said injury to win a clay court tournament a couple of weeks later - suuuure.

Are you saying that his 23-10 head to head record vs Federer, his 14 GSs of which 9 are on clay and best of all, his RECORD 248 WEEKS at #2 qualifies him for GOAT over Federer's resume?

yeah, I'm sure he decided to stop playing in the final of a Grand Slam after losing the first set... he just DECIDED to limp around the court, miss services, can't get to returns and normal ground strokes.... just **** it, screw this match, I lost the first set, let me give this man this one for free.

[rmt]

Nadal from age 18-21 during Fed's peak of 04-07 won 3 slams on clay, made 2 finals on grass, and 2 QF on HC. Federer from age 18-21? 2 QF. 1 on grass, 1 on clay.

So we're penalizing Nadal for not making final after final on every surface in his late teens and early 20s during Federer's peak, despite Federer doing essentially nothing of note at the same age.

And Nadal doesn't just have the advantage on clay. Dude is 9-6 against Fed on HC and down just 1-2 on grass, where one of the losses was a 5 setter. And all 3 grass court matches were from 06-08, 2 years into and 1 year right out of Fed's peak, while Nadal was in his late teens-early 20s. Fed for all his multi-surface dominance is just one lost set from having a losing record to Nadal on all 3 surfaces.

And why are you so focused on when each was age 18-21? Nadal developed early and Federer developed late (and still managed to win more)? This is about TOTAL resume. Besides, Fed (currently #2) seems like he's outlasted Nadal (#10) despite being 5 years older.

You do know that they have slowed down and homogenized ALL the surfaces in order to create rivalries (have the same people in the finals week after week). They didn't want to have clay court specialists who wouldn't play Wimbledon or grass court specialists who wouldn't play French Open. They fiddled with the surfaces and the balls - all for the almighty dollar.

If Nadal were unlucky enough to have been born 10 years earlier, he wouldn't have won any non-clay GS with the fast surfaces/balls they've had throughout tennis history.