Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-05-2007, 09:18 PM   #31
Kblaze8855
Titles are overrated
 
Kblaze8855's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 20,785
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
and im waiting for someone to tell me how in the hell anyone thinks of kg as a leader. What the hell has he ever lead anyone to? 30 wins?

Considering that virtually every player, coach, and GM ever asked of his leadership is impressed with it maybe you should explain why everyone but you(and a few other Mavs fans im sure have no reason to put down Garnett) is wrong.
Kblaze8855 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 09:21 PM   #32
TMacsOneGoodEye
Great college starter
 
TMacsOneGoodEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,490
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Dwight. I've seen all I can take of Dirk in the post-season.
TMacsOneGoodEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 09:33 AM   #33
raiderfan19
Shazam!
 
raiderfan19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,914
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeWiz15
uh....;

you saying it doesn't make it true, but keep trying.
uh dirk averages essentially as many assists with fewer turnovers and poorer offensive options to pass to and as to leadership, it is generally considered to go with winning
Dirk-kg
60 win seasons 3-0
50 win seasons 7-4

finals-1-0
conference finals-2-1
2nd round 5-1
1st round 7-8

so the only thing kg has "lead" his team too more than dirk has is first round exits.
raiderfan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 09:34 AM   #34
raiderfan19
Shazam!
 
raiderfan19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,914
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Considering that virtually every player, coach, and GM ever asked of his leadership is impressed with it maybe you should explain why everyone but you(and a few other Mavs fans im sure have no reason to put down Garnett) is wrong.
same thing i just said to geewiz. Leadership is equated to winning like it or not and quite frankly thats one thing kg has sucked at for most of his career.
raiderfan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 09:38 AM   #35
Lebron23
2nd Greatest Player
 
Lebron23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Land of 6 NBA titles
Posts: 52,519
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Dwight Howard because he play defense, and he has more years left to prove himself as the next big thing in the NBA.
Lebron23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:27 AM   #36
Real Men Wear Green
Please clap.
 
Real Men Wear Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 23,881
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
and im waiting for someone to tell me how in the hell anyone thinks of kg as a leader. What the hell has he ever lead anyone to? 30 wins?
A lot of people seem to have forgotten that Garnett lead Minny to the best record in the West and the Conference Finals when he had Cassell and Spree. Might even have beat the Lakers if Cassell hadn't got injured.
Real Men Wear Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:32 AM   #37
raiderfan19
Shazam!
 
raiderfan19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,914
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
A lot of people seem to have forgotten that Garnett lead Minny to the best record in the West and the Conference Finals when he had Cassell and Spree. Might even have beat the Lakers if Cassell hadn't got injured.
and dirk lead dallas to the finals. Again still waiting on an excuse to rank kg higher besides he makes mean faces.
raiderfan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:37 AM   #38
Patrick27
Good High School Starter
 
Patrick27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 854
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
A lot of people seem to have forgotten that Garnett lead Minny to the best record in the West and the Conference Finals when he had Cassell and Spree. Might even have beat the Lakers if Cassell hadn't got injured.

Of the two, I'd guess Cassell was more the leader. Can anyone confirm/deny?
Patrick27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:41 AM   #39
Patrick27
Good High School Starter
 
Patrick27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 854
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niquesports
I can respect your oppinion but to think the pgs can't get the ball to a post player is the reason the mav don't have a inside game is not the case they could have nash or kidd who on the mavs right now even with Dirk would be there and be able to get 20 pts in the paint ??????????

The problem isn't just the entry pass, although this may be bad - I don't know. I think the opposition would simply collapse on Dwight because there's nobody to spread the floor. Teams would approach things with the idea that Jason Terry can beat them with 3's, but there's no way Dwight gets 20. Heck, just hack him and put him on the line instead. This would force Dwight to be less a part of the offense because there's no way to punish teams for this double teaming.

You'd essentially have last year's Magic (but slightly better, yet still in the West so about even result) with Dwight in Dirk's place, don't you think?
Patrick27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:41 AM   #40
raiderfan19
Shazam!
 
raiderfan19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,914
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
Of the two, I'd guess Cassell was more the leader. Can anyone confirm/deny?
id agree with that but i generally give the best player credit for leading a team somewhere. so ill give kg credit for leading them there
raiderfan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:44 AM   #41
saKf
Roy = my new fave.
 
saKf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Not offended by low scores.
Posts: 3,875
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
Of the two, I'd guess Cassell was more the leader. Can anyone confirm/deny?
Garnett showed some pretty undeniably strong leadership throughout that entire season and playoffs.
saKf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 10:46 AM   #42
raiderfan19
Shazam!
 
raiderfan19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,914
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
The problem isn't just the entry pass, although this may be bad - I don't know. I think the opposition would simply collapse on Dwight because there's nobody to spread the floor. Teams would approach things with the idea that Jason Terry can beat them with 3's, but there's no way Dwight gets 20. Heck, just hack him and put him on the line instead. This would force Dwight to be less a part of the offense because there's no way to punish teams for this double teaming.

You'd essentially have last year's Magic (but slightly better, yet still in the West so about even result) with Dwight in Dirk's place, don't you think?
this is how bad the mavs are at throwing entry passes. Dirk is the best post entry passer on the team. I will admit dirk struggles at sealing sometimes but its amazing how bad jet and devin are at feeding the post. Devin i can understand because no one honors his shot which should make it harder but jet i just dont understand.
raiderfan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 11:05 AM   #43
Kblaze8855
Titles are overrated
 
Kblaze8855's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 20,785
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
same thing i just said to geewiz. Leadership is equated to winning like it or not and quite frankly thats one thing kg has sucked at for most of his career.

Who exactly equates leadership to winning in so simple a way as listing wins and losses? Fans clearly dont. We are the fans. Im sure most here would call KG a good leader. GMs?

If they do as you said...why is it Dirk has recieved zero votes from NBA GMS the last 4 years in best leader votes but KG, Cassell, Jason Kidd, and Nash have? KG has gotten votes all 4 years(and not from just Mchale either. I dont think they can vote for their own and even if they could KG has gotten more than 1 vote so it doesnt matter). Dirk has never recieved a single vote from anyone. KG doesnt win yearly but he always gets votes. He won one year won with more than twice as many votes as the #2.

So it seems neither fans or those in power think the way you claim. Who is left? Ive yet to hear a coach mention Garnett and say or even imply anything negative of his leadership.

Rick Barry led his team to the title...so did Elvin Hayes. All stories related to them suggest they were terrible leaders the teams didnt even like and barely respected. Leadership like it or not has never been just a matter of win loss record. Plenty of winners were not great team leaders. Drexler was the leader on the Blazers? What was Russell the only leader in the entire decade of the 60s? His winning destroyed everyone elses.

Dirk is a very good player(great player really...all time great even) but winning has never been the only thing that made someone be defined as a great leader. Leading a team to a good record is just another way to say a guy is the teams best player. Not used the same way as leadership usually is. Same word...different meaning.

Drexler led the Blazers to great records...Terry Porter was the teams leader to me. In 99 Duncan led the spurs to the title...wouldnt say he was more of a leader than Avery Johnson or Drob. Danny Manning was the best player o nthe Clippers in the early 90s. He led them to the playoffs. Id say Mark Jackson was the leader(and Larry Brown said almost the exact same thing).

Leadership isnt a combo of who has the best stats and best record. Leadership is refusing individual interviews in favor of having at least 2 other teammates. Getting 3 new suits for every rookie. Buying an entire theater so the team could watch a movie in peace.Working harder than everyone and inspiring others to try to keep up. Mark Madsen recently called him the best leader in sports and spoke on him being one of the most loyal and inspirational people he knew. Talked about the demand for perfection and how he inspires teammates to not let him down. **** I read Brian Scalabrine say the same thing...

Only he wasnt talking about basketball. Scalabrine looked at a buffet table. I guess hes supposed to be staying in shape and in his own words he felt he let KG down just looking at the plate. He was half joking but the point was made. Something else...

Quote:
Scalabrine, in his third season with Boston after four with New Jersey, has played well as a backup. Last season, he was lost in the mix as Rivers struggled to find a consistent player rotation.

So what's the difference between the two teams?

Scalabrine didn't have enough time to discuss all of it.

"You want a book? I can give you a book. I could sum it up in three words - we have accountability," he said. "Kevin demands a high level of perfection out there. When we're tied, he's upset. That's how it is. The bar is set so high and that's where it needs to be set."

You can hate it and ignore all aspects aside from record if you want but fans, coaches, GMs, and players all consider KG a great leader.

As I said in the first place...maybe you should explain why you know better than....well...damn near everyone. I think I know better than damn near everyone...but I will at least try to explain why everyone else is inferior.

I never said Dirk wasnt a leader but you saying KG isnt...its as close to being factually incorrect as a matter of pure opinion can be.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 12-06-2007 at 11:12 AM.
Kblaze8855 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 11:15 AM   #44
raiderfan19
Shazam!
 
raiderfan19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,914
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Who exactly equates leadership to winning in so simple a way as listing wins and losses? Fans clearly dont. We are the fans. Im sure most here would call KG a good leader. GMs?

If they do as you said...why is it Dirk has recieved zero votes from NBA GMS the last 4 years in best leader votes but KG, Cassell, Jason Kidd, and Nash have? KG has gotten votes all 4 years(and not from just Mchale either. I dont think they can vote for their own and even if they could KG has gotten more than 1 vote so it doesnt matter). Dirk has never recieved a single vote from anyone. KG doesnt win yearly but he always gets votes. He won one year won with more than twice as many votes as the #2.

So it seems neither fans or those in power think the way you claim. Who is left?

Rick Barry led his team to the title...so did Elvin Hayes. All stories related to them suggest they were terrible leaders the teams didnt even like and barely respected. Leadership like it or not has never been just a matter of win loss record. Plenty of winners were not great team leaders. Drexler was the leader on the Blazers? What was Russell the only leader in the entire decade of the 60s? His winning destroyed everyone elses.

Dirk is a very good player(great player really...all time great even) but winning has never been the only thing that made someone be defined as a great leader. Leading a team to a good record is just another way to say a guy is the teams best player. Not used the same way as leadership usually is. Same word...different meaning.

Drexler led the Blazers to great records...Terry Porter was the teams leader to me. In 99 Duncan led the spurs to the title...wouldnt say he was more of a leader than Avery Johnson or Drob. Danny Manning was the best player o nthe Clippers in the early 90s. He led them to the playoffs. Id say Mark Jackson was the leader(and Larry Brown said almost the exact same thing).

Leadership isnt a combo of who has the best stats and best record. Leadership is refusing individual interviews in favor of having at least 2 other teammates. Getting 3 new suits for every rookie. Buying an entire theater so the team could watch a movie in peace.Working harder than everyone and inspiring others to try to keep up. Mark Madsen recently called him the best leader in sports and spoke on him being one of the most loyal and inspirational people he knew. Talked about the demand for perfection and how he inspires teammates to not let him down. **** I read Brian Scalabrine say the same thing...

Only he wasnt talking about basketball. Scalabrine looked at a buffet table. I guess hes supposed to be staying in shape and in his own words he felt he let KG down just looking at the plate. He was half joking but the point was made. Something else...



You can hate it and ignore all aspects aside from record if you want but fans, coaches, GMs, and players all consider KG a great leader.

As I said in the first place...maybe you should explain why yu know better than....well...damn near everyone.

I never said Dirk wasnt a leader but you saying KG isnt...its as close to being factually incorrect as a matter of pure opinion can be.
ive already explained but if you would like further examples ill continue. Look at the mavs team right now(and the past two years). Aside from jerry stackhouse there isnt a single player besides dirk who was ever a star. Brandon bass couldnt get minutes on NO. Diop couldnt get minutes in Cleveland. Eddie Jones, devean george, trenton hassell were all guys that crappy teams didnt want. Jason terry was a volume shooter that shot 42% on a bad team

all of that merged with josh howard and devin harris supposedly forms this all world supporting cast that is responsible for the mavs being SIGNIFIGANTLY more successful than kgs teams have ever thought about being. that is leadership.
raiderfan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 11:25 AM   #45
Patrick27
Good High School Starter
 
Patrick27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 854
Default Re: Dwight Howard or Dirk

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
id agree with that but i generally give the best player credit for leading a team somewhere. so ill give kg credit for leading them there

I'd think that leading the team (motivating them through back to backs, picking up players when they're down) is different from putting the team on your back (ala Lebron and Kobe). Sounds like you're defining KG as the latter. I always thought of KG as better at the former, because although he puts up crazy numbers, he's not the style of player that can put a team on his back ala Tmac, Kobe, Lebron.

Often, people handle both roles, but when we talk about team leadership and KG, I think we mean the first one. Good cheerleader, does everything he can, but cannot make a team win singlehandedly.

And that, my friends, is why the current big 3 in Boston has so much potential for greatness if they stay healthy. Anything one is missing, the other two have it covered.

Now, back to Dirk and Dwight - I think Dirk has the 'takeover the game' leadership ability, but I'm not aware of his locker room presence. I think we know Dwight can't take over a game quite yet, but he seems to be a genuinely good teammate and the potential to be a good locker room leader. This is another aspect where some teams need a Dirk and others need a Dwight. For example, Chicago needs a Dirk to take over games, and New York needs a Dwight to fix the chemistry and morale.
Patrick27 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:


Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:12 PM.






NBA BASKETBALL FORUM KEY LINKS:

NBA Basketball

NBA Rumors

NBA free agency

NBA free agents list

Las Vegas NBA Summer League

FIBA World Cup Basketball

NBA Videos

Search Site

FOLLOW US
Twitter
Facebook
Instagram
YouTube
















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy