Why did MJ need so much help...

[3ball]

Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman etc

Horace Grant and Kukoc/Rodman were not on the same team

It was Pippen/Grant for the first 3-peat...... and Pippen/Rodman for the 2nd

That's isn't a lot of help.. Grant was a role player and Rodman didn't even start in the 98' playoffs (and 4/8 in 97' playoffs)

And Kukoc equals 6th man of the year JR Smith - he was a 12 ppg role player and every team has someone comparable - the only reason you mention kukoc is because you can't find enough stars on the roster.... So you start mentioning role players that you wouldn't do for anyone else... Only to bring down MJ... #goathater

Only in 96' did the Bulls have a personnel advantage on opponents (when rodman was still playing like a star).. but it was a only a defense and hustle advantage - they were still playing 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, and needed goat teamwork to have a goat offense (and genius from MJ to fit his goat scoring into a system)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]You have to look far and wide for someone who’s had as much help[/COLOR], at least before this superstar collusion era we live in.

Worthy crushed Pippen in the 91' Finals (led Lakers in scoring), and was all-nba that year while Pippen wasn't even an all-star.. So Magic had a comparable sidekick/HOF to Pippen

After the MJ/Magic and Pippen/Worthy matchups, the Lakers had two 17/10 bigs in those Finals (Vlade, Perkins) that were better than anyone the bulls had... Plus 90' all star AC Green and Elden Campbell.. that's a lot more help than the Bulls had

And could the Bulls make the Finals with MJ averaging 18 ppg as 3rd option in the first 3 rounds??... Because that's what Drexler did in 1990 when his stacked blazers made the Finals - Drexler had 3 all-star teammates (porter/duckworth/williams) and were simply way more stacked than Pippen plus role players Grant/Paxson.. it's not even close

And it's common knowledge that the 93' Suns were the most stacked team in the league...

You have to look far and wide for someone who’s had as much help

Don't you wonder why MJ needed the #1 all-time PPG and efficiency rating (PER) if he had the most help???

That makes no sense.. he averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, which is more than anyone else averaged for 3 rings.. your argument makes no sense and is refuted by the goat stats that MJ needed to win

Finally, only MJ could've won with the Bulls because the Bulls needed scoring champion production from the #1 option - they won all 6 rings with MJ as scoring champ - no one ever won a ring as scoring champ except MJ 6 times.. (edit: Kareem and Shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00').. so Kobe couldn't win with those Bulls because he either couldn't score enough (not scoring champ), or couldn't fit that scoring into a championship system... Ditto everyone else in history
.

[Leviathon1121]

[QUOTE=Objectivity]Yeah right...how many did he win without pippen?

You

[Objectivity]

Horace Grant and Kukoc/Rodman were not on the same team

It was Pippen/Grant for the first 3-peat...... and Pippen/Rodman for the 2nd

That's isn't a lot of help.. Grant was a role player and Rodman didn't even start in the 98' playoffs (and 4/8 in 97' playoffs)

And Kukoc equals 6th man of the year JR Smith - he was a 12 ppg role player and every team has someone comparable - the only reason you mention kukoc is because you can't find enough stars on the roster.... So you start mentioning role players that you wouldn't do for anyone else... Only to bring down MJ... #goathater

Only in 96' did the Bulls have a personnel advantage on opponents (when rodman was still playing like a star).. but it was a only a defense and hustle advantage - they were still playing 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, and needed goat teamwork to have a goat offense (and genius from MJ to fit his goat scoring into a system)



Worthy crushed Pippen in the 91' Finals (led Lakers in scoring), and was all-nba that year while Pippen wasn't even an all-star.. So Magic had a comparable sidekick/HOF to Pippen

After the MJ/Magic and Pippen/Worthy matchups, the Lakers had two 17/10 bigs in those Finals (Vlade, Perkins) that were better than anyone the bulls had... Plus 90' all star AC Green and Elden Campbell.. that's a lot more help than the Bulls had

And could the Bulls make the Finals with MJ averaging 18 ppg as 3rd option in the first 3 rounds??... Because that's what Drexler did in 1990 when his stacked blazers made the Finals - Drexler had 3 all-star teammates (porter/duckworth/williams) and were simply way more stacked than Pippen plus role players Grant/Paxson.. it's not even close

And it's common knowledge that the 93' Suns were the most stacked team in the league...



Don't you wonder why MJ needed the #1 all-time PPG and efficiency rating (PER) if he had the most help???

That makes no sense.. he averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, which is more than anyone else averaged for 3 rings.. your argument makes no sense and is refuted by the goat stats that MJ needed to win

Finally, only MJ could've won with the Bulls because the Bulls needed scoring champion production from the #1 option - they won all 6 rings with MJ as scoring champ - no one ever won a ring as scoring champ except MJ 6 times.. (edit: Kareem and Shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00').. so Kobe couldn't win with those Bulls because he either couldn't score enough (not scoring champ), or couldn't fit that scoring into a championship system... Ditto everyone else in history
.

MJ is great and all but he is no Kobe, him quitting on his team to play baseball sealed it...Kobe>MJ

[tontoz]

Sure, Pippen was a scrub

I just stated facts, which you obviously can't handle.

16/6

[RRR3]

List does not necessarily = rankings order in all instances

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
West
Oscar
Dr.J
M.Malone
K.Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk
Admiral
Isiah
Wade
Durant
Steph
Baylor

That's 25. Who you taking off to replace with Pippen?

Definitely think Pippen has an argument over Isiah. Depending on what you value you could argue for some of the others too.

[LostCause]

Definitely think Pippen has an argument over Isiah. Depending on what you value you could argue for some of the others too.

Nah lol

Zeke is debatable but the others there

[Phoenix]

Definitely think Pippen has an argument over Isiah. Depending on what you value you could argue for some of the others too.

What one values factors into all of these discussions about rankings. What your case for Pippen over Isiah?

[SamuraiSWISH]

The levels of desperation

[bigkingsfan]

What one values factors into all of these discussions about rankings. What your case for Pippen over Isiah?

More all nba teams. 7>5. More defensive teams. 10 > 0

[Phoenix]

More all nba teams. 7>5. More defensive teams. 10 > 0

I'll give you the all defense, but I have to wonder if Isiah was blackballed in the all-nba team voting after his comments about Bird. He was clearly all-nba team worthy until 90 but he never made another team after 87. Even after they added the third team in 88 they had guys like Price, Dale Ellis, and Isiah's own teammate Joe Dumars being placed on the third team in 90. Credible selections? Perhaps, not sure about over Isiah though. But that can't be proved so it is what it is. I'd also argue that Isiah's competition at the guard spots may have been a bit better than Scotties at the forward spot especially as the mid 90s rolled around. When he hit his prime he was mostly contending with an aging Barkley and Malone, Kemp and a young Grant Hill. Isiah in the late 80s was competing against MJ, Magic, Drexler, Stockton, KJ on top of the aforementioned Price, Ellis, etc.

[SpaceJam2]

Lowest production from #2 and #3 for playoff run (in order)
[COLOR="Green"]Top tier*
1994 Hakeem: 27.6 ppg*
2013 LeBron: 28.0 ppg * [/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Middle tier
2011 Dirk: 30.8 ppg
1991 Jordan: 31.0 ppg
2004 Billups: 31.3 ppg
1993 Jordan: 31.8 ppg
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Bottom tier
1998 Jordan: 32.4 ppg
1996 Jordan: 32.5 ppg
2009 Kobe: 33.2 ppg
2010 Kobe: 33.3 ppg[/COLOR]

*Only FMVPs to carry #2 and #3 combined 28.0 ppg or under

Good question

At best his was 4th best scoring load carry

[bullettooth]

Lowest production from #2 and #3 for playoff run (in order)
[COLOR="Green"]Top tier*
1994 Hakeem: 27.6 ppg*
2013 LeBron: 28.0 ppg * [/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Middle tier
2011 Dirk: 30.8 ppg
1991 Jordan: 31.0 ppg
2004 Billups: 31.3 ppg
1993 Jordan: 31.8 ppg
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Bottom tier
1998 Jordan: 32.4 ppg
1996 Jordan: 32.5 ppg
2009 Kobe: 33.2 ppg
2010 Kobe: 33.3 ppg[/COLOR]

*Only FMVPs to carry #2 and #3 combined 28.0 ppg or under

Good question

At best his was 4th best scoring load carry

Omg! stats!

[SpaceJam2]

Omg! stats!

Annnd?

[TheMan]

You have to look far and wide for someone who’s had as much help, at least before this superstar collusion era we live in.

Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman etc


Scottie Pippen is at least top 25 ever and was a legit MVP candidate...he is like the GOAT second option and a guy that can lock up the opposing team’s best player...MJ spent his entire career with this guy...

The fact that this fellow has 6 rings with this much help isn’t something special.


Anyway... my point is... you replace MJ with Kobe and you win at least 6 rings, probably more because Kobe wouldn’t quit on his team...

Yeah, MJ's Bulls were so stacked that outside of Pippen, between Grant, Kukoc, and Rodman, they have a grand total of 1 All Star appearance between these "superstars"

Outside of Pippen, MJ's teammates were very good role players. This whole Bulls were stacked with All Stars BS needs to stop because it's simply not true. The Bulls were a well coached team led by the GOAT, a top 25-30 sidekick and a collection of very good role players who fulfilled roles to a tee. They played well within a system and played great team defense (especially the 96-98 version).

Stacked like the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, Bad Boys Pistons, early 80s Sixers? No

[Leviathon1121]

Yeah, MJ's Bulls were so stacked that outside of Pippen, between Grant, Kukoc, and Rodman, they have a grand total of 1 All Star appearance between these "superstars"

Outside of Pippen, MJ's teammates were very good role players. This whole Bulls were stacked with All Stars BS needs to stop because it's simply not true. The Bulls were a well coached team led by the GOAT, a top 25-30 sidekick and a collection of very good role players who fulfilled roles to a tee. They played well within a system and played great team defense (especially the 96-98 version).

Stacked like the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, Bad Boys Pistons, early 80s Sixers? No

Shhhhhh...this isn