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Old 09-18-2019, 12:06 PM   #1
AirFederer
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Default Ben Wallace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWXpyrfEuYo

How good was he?
Is he underrated?
How good/impactful would he be today?

To me he is easily one of the defense GOATs. Showing hustle and will to win you rarely see (today).
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

To me he will always be the one who made Ron Artest shit in his pants.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

I will watch that video later.

He is the best defensive player I have seen.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

He would still be a defensive player of the year now. The game is obviously less physical but he was essentially a wing size wise who played center so he could fit in today switching and moving his feet just fine. Pair him with some star he could get a good connection with like Capella and Steven Adams have had heís probably able to score more than he did back then too. Maybe in the 14/15 range production wise which is in line with others who focus on defense and rebounding and get the minutes.

I feel like Hassan Whiteside had a 17 and 14 season.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
He would still be a defensive player of the year now. The game is obviously less physical but he was essentially a wing size wise who played center so he could fit in today switching and moving his feet just fine. Pair him with some star he could get a good connection with like Capella and Steven Adams have had heís probably able to score more than he did back then too. Maybe in the 14/15 range production wise which is in line with others who focus on defense and rebounding and get the minutes.

I feel like Hassan Whiteside had a 17 and 14 season.

In this league though you would need to pair Wallace with a big who can space the floor. Having two non-shooting bigs out there is disasterous these days.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Ben Wallace was an absolute force. One of my favorite players of all time, even as a middle school kid I loved his defense and even got my mom to cop me his Bulls jersey for my birthday
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Quote:
Originally Posted by superduper
In this league though you would need to pair Wallace with a big who can space the floor. Having two non-shooting bigs out there is disasterous these days.


Well obviously, even back then that was the case pairing Ben Wallace with Sheed.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Quote:
Originally Posted by superduper
In this league though you would need to pair Wallace with a big who can space the floor. Having two non-shooting bigs out there is disasterous these days.


Like Cliff Robinson, Rasheed Wallace, and Nocioni. Even Pat Garrity when he was in Orlando. Ben always had a shooting 4 on the roster with him.
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
He would still be a defensive player of the year now. The game is obviously less physical but he was essentially a wing size wise who played center so he could fit in today switching and moving his feet just fine. Pair him with some star he could get a good connection with like Capella and Steven Adams have had heís probably able to score more than he did back then too. Maybe in the 14/15 range production wise which is in line with others who focus on defense and rebounding and get the minutes.

I feel like Hassan Whiteside had a 17 and 14 season.

Thinking Ben Wallace could average 14-15 points is outrageous

He was listed at 6'9 but measured in at 6'7. Much shorter than Whiteside/Capella and his touch around the basket was about 100 times worse. Wallace was a career 41% FT shooter and had seasons shooting under 40% and shot 42/45% in his highest scoring seasons on stacked rosters where teams didn't have to pay attention to him and all he did was shoot within 0-3 feet. He had seasons where he shot 50-54% within 0-3 of the basket. Whitside shoots 73% for his career in that area.

Wallace played a ton of minutes back than too. No chance he's getting on the floor for 35-39 minutes in today's era. He would have led the league in MPG in two of his seasons last year. The league spiked in scoring last year to 111 points but the previous seasons were in the 101-106 range. In '12-13 and and '11-12 the average was at 96-98. Wallace played in the league when it was at 95-99 on average. The difference in scoring is simply just 3 point shooting which would only hurt Wallace, not help him. Both offensively and defensively.

That decade was my favorite era of basketball but Wallace's career would be much worse today. He played in the best era suited for him for sure.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

A 10 point a game player adding four- five points with considerably more possessions in a pick and roll league that will just lob the ball at a big man in open space isn’t out of the question. He played 36 minutes when he hit his peak scoring. Scoring at the exact same rate and simply adding more trips down the court would give them an opportunity for another garbage basket. It’s not an issue of him having skills more suited to today. It’s partly an issue of there no longer being 56 point games. He’s out there in the playoffs in games with the other team having 39 points in the fourth quarter. He’s not facing teams grinding down the clock and taking 64 shots in a game. Some of his best years the Pistons only scored 100 10-15 times without overtime. Some teams today only stayed under 100 5 or 10 times the whole year.

Scoring more with more chances to score doesn’t make you a better scorer. And there isn’t a long road from 10 to 14-15 in the situation I mentioned. What’s the more conservative estimate? 12? We are arguing over a single lay up or tip in?

And calling that difference over the course of an entire game playing with a play making guard Outrageous?

Let’s just say you disagree. Ben Wallace scoring 25 points a game is outrageous.

14-ish?

Eh.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

And not like this proves a point but I gotta get some mileage out of some of these things to justify the effort they take....








I can’t imagine what point I was making in whatever topic I made those for. It was lost in the great purge so who knows what I was getting at. May have been a joke....but it’s fitting for the moment. Just a random playoff game Ben decided to start shooting jumpers and he knocked the nets out of the playoffs.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuggetsFan
Thinking Ben Wallace could average 14-15 points is outrageous

He was listed at 6'9 but measured in at 6'7. Much shorter than Whiteside/Capella and his touch around the basket was about 100 times worse. Wallace was a career 41% FT shooter and had seasons shooting under 40% and shot 42/45% in his highest scoring seasons on stacked rosters where teams didn't have to pay attention to him and all he did was shoot within 0-3 feet. He had seasons where he shot 50-54% within 0-3 of the basket. Whitside shoots 73% for his career in that area.

Wallace played a ton of minutes back than too. No chance he's getting on the floor for 35-39 minutes in today's era. He would have led the league in MPG in two of his seasons last year. The league spiked in scoring last year to 111 points but the previous seasons were in the 101-106 range. In '12-13 and and '11-12 the average was at 96-98. Wallace played in the league when it was at 95-99 on average. The difference in scoring is simply just 3 point shooting which would only hurt Wallace, not help him. Both offensively and defensively.

That decade was my favorite era of basketball but Wallace's career would be much worse today. He played in the best era suited for him for sure.
Disgusting.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
A 10 point a game player adding four- five points with considerably more possessions in a pick and roll league that will just lob the ball at a big man in open space isnít out of the question. He played 36 minutes when he hit his peak scoring. Scoring at the exact same rate and simply adding more trips down the court would give them an opportunity for another garbage basket. Itís not an issue of him having skills more suited to today. Itís partly an issue of there no longer being 56 point games. Heís out there in the playoffs in games with the other team having 39 points in the fourth quarter. Heís not facing teams grinding down the clock and taking 64 shots in a game. Some of his best years the Pistons only scored 100 10-15 times without overtime. Some teams today only stayed under 100 5 or 10 times the whole year.

Scoring more with more chances to score doesnít make you a better scorer. And there isnít a long road from 10 to 14-15 in the situation I mentioned. Whatís the more conservative estimate? 12? We are arguing over a single lay up or tip in?

And calling that difference over the course of an entire game playing with a play making guard Outrageous?

Letís just say you disagree. Ben Wallace scoring 25 points a game is outrageous.

14-ish?

Eh.

James Harden averaged 36 MPG last year. Ben Wallace had seasons in the 36-39 MPG range. You think Ben Wallace would lead the league in minutes per game if he played today? That's outrageous to me and one of the bigger points. It's within the possibility a guy like Ben Wallace plays like 20-29 MPG in today's league. Even that might be a bit much on certain teams that simply don't play that style of basketball. Post defense/protecting the rim isn't near as valuable given how much teams wanna defend the perimeter.

The reason scoring is up is 3 point shooting tho. It was just last year that it exploded. The past 5 seasons scoring wasn't as crazy. In '04-05 the league averaged 97 points per game. Last year the league averaged 111 points per game. 5.6 3 point makes per game vs 11.2 last year. That's 33 points vs 18. That's a 15 point difference on 3 pointers. So the league scored 14 more points last year than in '04 ... and there was a difference in 15 points from 3's. Why would Ben Wallace benefit from that? Teams played inside more, hit the offensive glass more, and played schemes that were better for bigs in '04 so why would he score more today?

I think it's outrageous because were literally seeing players like Ben Wallace go extinct. Obviously someone like Kenneth Faried is a much shittier player, but when he plays he's still solid, yet he can't get on the floor because of how limited he is offensively. Thinking in 2019 Ben Wallace would get more scoring chances and be out here leading the league in minutes is absolutely crazy IMO.

4-5 more points is a pretty big gap as well. A 10 point player vs 15 a night and 15 vs 20 a night is significant. Ben Wallace averaged like 6-7 with the Pistons as well. He had two seasons where he hit that in like 17 years.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR3
Disgusting.


There’s a reason guys like Whiteside Capella DeAndre Jordan Gobert and Steven Adams all have seasons shooting 63 to 70% from the field which was previously unheard of outside of will Chamberlain and Artis Gilmore.

In a spaced out league that runs a huge number of screens and has solid play makers Big men who lack skill aren’t out here going one on one they are getting dump off’s from guards and doing almost nothing but dunking.

Rudy Gobert is not dunking more than prime Shaq because of his ability around the basket(he had more dunks this year than anyone in the 19 years it’s been tracked).

None of these guys shooting percentages mean anything. The only ones who miss shots close in are the ones who convinced themselves they should be creating shots. The low skill play finishers are all out here shooting like Wilt Chamberlain on the Lakers.

There isnt a coach in the league who is going to give Ben Wallace the ball to do something with it. He would shoot better from the field because a higher percentage of his touches will be quick dunks.

The Pistons would actually give Ben Wallace the ball occasionally and let him try to take somebody one on one. Those days are over. He will be doing nothing but rolling to the basket and catching lobs when it was poorly played.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:14 PM   #15
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Default Re: Ben Wallace

I have to stop posting from my phone. Requires too much editing after. But Iím too lazy to go get on my computer most of the time.
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