kareem vs russell -- who is the greatest player of all time?

[Poochymama]

1. Russell
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Kobe
10. Lebron

Close, but gotta go with Russell. BR releasing the defensive and offensive ratings of 60s teams really changed my mind on Russell.

[PHILA]

Russell clearly. Boston's defense went from -6.4 to -0.1 the year after he retired at age 35. It peaked at -10.8 in 1964, which is unheard of any era. No player has ever been more valuable to a franchise, nor has any single player revolutionized the sport quite the same. I would take him over KAJ both as a college and NBA center. In looking at the disrespect towards Russell among most NBA fans now, I don't know if it is a Lakers bias, era favoritism, or a preference towards pure shooting touch, seeing as that is the only advantage KAJ has on Russell in tangible physical skills. Intangibly, there is no comparison.

[Dr.J4ever]

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

I thoroughly agree with all this Jordan is undisputed goat stuff. It's bogus.

Jordan played in a relatively weaker 90s era. It was diluted and it was acknowledged by observers back then. Jordan never faced a "super team" in the Finals any year. The Jazz LOL.

Still 6/6 is 6/6, but like Marciano. Ali is universally ranked higher by experts over Marciano, even though Rocky went undefeated, and Ali has a handful of losses. Why? Ali faced giants in the ring, plain and simple.

Jordan? Sorry, I just didn't see it.

[DatAsh]

I thoroughly agree with all this Jordan is undisputed goat stuff. It's bogus.

Jordan played in a relatively weaker 90s era. It was diluted and it was acknowledged by observers back then. Jordan never faced a "super team" in the Finals any year. The Jazz LOL.

Still 6/6 is 6/6, but like Marciano. Ali is universally ranked higher by experts over Marciano, even though Rocky went undefeated, and Ali has a handful of losses. Why? Ali faced giants in the ring, plain and simple.

Jordan? Sorry, I just didn't see it.

Where do you rank Jordan?

[LAZERUSS]

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball!

TEAMs do win rings. That is why MJ was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, couldn't beat the Pistons in three straight post-seasons, and didn't win a ring until he had the best supporting rosters in the league.

That is why Russell's Celtics, the most stacked rosters of all-time, and with the most clutch supporting (and LEADING players, like Havlicek in '68 and '69) won 11 rings. Hell, his '58 team BARELY lost with him missing over half of the series, and his team playing better without him, than with him.

Kareem? Was the best player in the league in the entire decade of the 70's. And played on TWO teams that went to the Finals, and won ONE ring...in his 10 prime seasons. He also was swept with HCA in one, lost another with HCA in the first round, was beaten with stacked rosters, TWICE, by a Seattle team with one borderline HOF player, and missed the playoffs entirely in two straight seasons.

Shaq? Swept SIX times in the playoffs. Hell, he went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, and was awful in one of their series H2H's.

Bird? Lost with HCA SEVEN times, and was either ordinary, or awful in most of them. Hell, he won a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Hakeem? Wasn't even considered a Top-5 player for the vast majority of his career, and won ONE MVP in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. In 18 seasons he played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a high of 58 wins. He only went to four Conference Finals, three Finals, and won two rings in seasons in which MJ took the year off, or his TEAMMATES overwhelmed Shaq's. He also missed the playoffs HALF of his career, and was wiped out in the First Round EIGHT times.

Kobe? Without question, the WORST Finals' performer of all of the Top-10 players of all-time. Single handedly shot his team's out of the Finals in '04 and '08. And his last games in all of his Finals are among the worst of all-time.

Wilt did MORE things than ANY other player.

1. His COACH looked at his pathetic cast of clowns in '61-62, and asked Wilt to play 49 mpg and shoot 40 times per game. The result? Chamberlain took a team, the core of which was the same last place roster he inherited two years earlier, and led them to a game seven, two point loss, against the HOF-laden 60-20 Celtics, in, as always, a series in which he crushed Russell, and did so with his teammates collectively shooting .345 in it.

2. His new coach in '63-64 conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, with his returning roster, and a group of rookies and scrubs. He was absolutely horrified when the scrubs won. HE then asked Wilt to become a more all-around player, and Chamberlain played the best defense ever played by anyone not named Russell. He took a 31-49 roster to a 48-32 record, and a very competitive Finals against the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers, in a series in which he just carpet-bombed Russell.

3. That is why a 64-65 Chamberlain took a 40-40 team, with the same roster that went 34-46 the year before, and didn't make the playoffs, thru a first round romp over Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals, and then to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, in a series in which he just obliterated Russell.

4. That is why in 66-67, and under his another new COACH, he became a facilitator, and with finally a supporting roster the equal of Russell's, led them to an all-time best record, and then in the playoffs, he and his team just castrated Russell and his eight-time defending, and 60-21, Celtics.

5. That is why, in the very next year he set out to lead the league in assists, and not only accomplished the feat, he led his TEAM to the a RUNAWAY BEST RECORD. Furthermore, if he, and HALF of his TEAMMATES had not been decimated by injuries, they would certainly have repeated their previous year annihilation of the Celtics. As it was, a Chamberlain playing every minute of a series, in which NO ONE ELSE would have under the same circumstances, was able to take a shell of a roster to a game seven, four point loss.

6. Or that with his new team in 68-69, and under an incompetent coach, he STILL did whatever was asked of him, and had to painfully watch from the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven in which his TEAM, and with his TEAMMATES collectively outshot by Russell's, .477 to .360, lose by TWO points. In a series in which the Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning, 4-1.

7. Or the Wilt who came back a YEAR AHEAD of schedule from major knee surgery, and played at WAY less than 100%, because he wanted to help his TEAMMATES, and with a much poorer roster, and on basically one-leg, he got them to a game seven against the same Knick team that buried KAJ's 56-26 Bucks, 4-1 in the ECF's. And he did so with the ONLY 20-20- .600 Finals in NBA history.

8. Or the Wilt, overwhelmingly outgunned by Kareem and his 66-16 Bucks in the '71 WCF's, STILL outplayed a PEAK Kareem in a series loss. And as he left the floor in the last minute of the last game, he received a STANDING OVATION. Oh, and BTW, ...the game was played in MILWAUKEE!

9. Or the Wilt, in 71-72, and with yet ANOTHER new COACH, was asked to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and starting the break, and with one of the oldest rosters in the league (and league history), he led them to a then best ever record, at 69-13, which included 33 straight wins. Then, a 35 year old Wilt, in the twilight of his career, completely reduced a PEAK Kareem to a shot-jacking brick-layer in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, and led his team past a Bucks team that virtually EVERYONE believed would not only repeat as champions, but would be the next great dynasty.

Then, he dominated in the Finals, and even played the clinching game five with shattered wrist (the same injury that routinely side-lined Kareem for chunks of seasons), and led his team to their first ever title in Los Angeles, and all with his best teammate shooting .325 from the field...en route to a FMVP.

10. Or the Wilt who led his 72-73 team to a 60-22 record, and then crushed the same Warrior team that wiped out Kareem's 60-22 Bucks in the first round. And in the Finals, with his overmatched and injury-riddled roster, he kept LA in all four losses into the final minute, and in his very LAST game of his entire career, he put up a 23-21 game.


The REALITY was, in Wilt's first six seasons, he played on the worst rosters in the league, and STILL got them to four conference Finals, and a Finals, and lost two of those in game seven's to FAR superior Celtic teams.

The REALITY was, in Wilt's Philly years, he led them to the BEST RECORD in the league THREE straight seasons, including a 68-13 team that was perhaps the most dominant in NBA history, and would surely have repeated had not HALF the team been injured.

The REALITY was, in his five Laker seasons, he led his team to the Conference Finals EVERY year, and then to the Finals in FOUR of his FIVE seasons. He also accomplished considerably more from a TEAM standpoint, than a PEAK Kareem.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain not only PLAYED with injuries that would have had other players in ICU, he STILL played BRILLIANTLY. In fact, he was STILL putting up 20-20 post-season series while either noticeably limping, or with BOTH wrists heavily-bandaged. And he PLAYED nearly EVERY minute in them, as well.

Players like Russell missed chunks of games with an ankle injury. Or Kareem missed a clinching title game with a sprained ankle (and CHUNKS of seasons with a broken wrist, and even games with headaches.) Or Wilis Reed was lauded for doing absolutely nothing in a game seven in which his TEAMMATES completely shelled Wilt's. And in the same game, Chamberlain, only four months removed from major knee surgery, hung a 21-24 game, and was the ONLY Laker to play well.

Yep, Wilt the "selfish" "loser" who "choked."

[Dr.J4ever]

Where do you rank Jordan?

Kareem or Russell as 1 or 2, and then Jordan.

[Pointguard]

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

I said equal teams. Rick Barry won with rookie Jamal Wilkes as the easily the second best player. On the 78 and 79 teams Jamal was arguably the third best player after Kareem and Dantley. He wasn't clearly better than Nixon either or Lou Hudson the year before that. Give Jordan, Kareems teams with just a serviceable center. When nobody is dominant, the dominant stand out more. Jordan weeded out players on his team that were scared or not into winning. From 1975 to 79 there were no dynastic teams, no teams much more experienced than others and no player that had that killer mentality like Jordan. No player that stood out as a superior winner.

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career.

Wilt had did as much as Kareem did in the 70's winning wise??? Magic totally flipped Kareem's losing ways.

[DatAsh]

Kareem or Russell as 1 or 2, and then Jordan.

Cool beans. I was just curious.

[swagga]

I said equal teams. Rick Barry won with rookie Jamal Wilkes as the easily the second best player. On the 78 and 79 teams Jamal was arguably the third best player after Kareem and Dantley. He wasn't clearly better than Nixon either or Lou Hudson the year before that. Give Jordan, Kareems teams with just a serviceable center. When nobody is dominant, the dominant stand out more.

with this reasoning wilt has to have at least 10 rings... and we come again to the conclusion that TEAMS ring. If we take out every player out the top 10 MVP and every player which had more than 20ppg last year and put lebron on the 76ers he ain't winning. He's not even making it out the 2nd round.

Jordan weeded out players on his team that were scared or not into winning.

are you for real son? wtf did I just read? Did players audition before jordan? LOL that's some utter crap. If jordan did anything for his teammates was to be an asshole and he almost got his shit pushed in because of this, as you should know.

From 1975 to 79 there were no dynastic teams, no teams much more experienced than others and no player that had that killer mentality like Jordan. No player that stood out as a superior winner.
Wilt had did as much as Kareem did in the 70's winning wise??? Magic totally flipped Kareem's losing ways.

yet wilt had jerry west and baylor. You could say that magic was the missing piece for kareem's team just like scottie pippen was the missing piece for jordan's team. As worthy/scott were that piece that puts you over the top like oakley/rodman

Please stop with this alpha dog crap, it's cringing. Wes unseld's leg? Stockon playing thourgh shitloads of injuries? Ewing giving it for an incompetent franchise? Malone at 38 on his last leg? Jerry west and his fears? Isiah ankle? etc.... many many great players were super competitors.
Sometimes this competitivity went overboard and great players were trying to prove a point rather than win:
- kobe not passing to prove he is the man 2004,
- wilt on many occasions as I've previously said,
- lebron not shooting 2011 thinking that he'd hurt his team by overshooting
- iso jordan for much of his young career
- a myriad other examples
Still competitive but misguided, aka competitivity without leadership. Some learned from their mistakes others didn't, but they didn't fear winning. Btw if jordan was SO competitive and wanted to win so much why did he retire when he only had 3 rings?

I didn't even talk about big vs wing defensive impact...big man's game and all. Jordan is phenomenal as he is the only GOAT level player that is under 6'6'. All the others are 6'9'+ (bird,magic,russell, kareem, lebron - argue all you want, duncan, hakeem, wilt). Or whistles and special refereeing, lebron gets some but it's not on the same level with jordan.

Jordan is just a GOAT level player with the GOAT media. That's what set him appart and that's why we hear this constant crap about him being an untouchable god. He isn't. He had his fair share of bad days. Bad shooting. Bad leadership. Bad whistles for defenders.

[ArbitraryWater]

Russell clearly. Boston's defense went from -6.4 to -0.1 the year after he retired at age 35. It peaked at -10.8 in 1964, which is unheard of any era. No player has ever been more valuable to a franchise, nor has any single player revolutionized the sport quite the same. I would take him over KAJ both as a college and NBA center. In looking at the disrespect towards Russell among most NBA fans now, I don't know if it is a Lakers bias, era favoritism, or a preference towards pure shooting touch, seeing as that is the only advantage KAJ has on Russell in tangible physical skills. Intangibly, there is no comparison.

Come on now

It's actually scoring, by a landslide.

[Pointguard]

are you for real son? wtf did I just read?

That is exactly your problem you don't read! And I'm not going to say my bad, I forgot you don't read. Jordan had great influence on who stayed on those teams. Horace Grant, Corzine, Will Purdue were all given one way tickets out. Brad Sellers and Stacey King lost their confidence before they were booted too.

Did players audition before jordan? LOL that's some utter crap.

Well being that you "jus, don't know" Craig Hodges was semi-released from the team (amazingly he could be in the NBA three point shootout, but not allowed on any team) because of his comments on Jordan's politics. Nothing to do with basketball. Auditioning is lesser part of getting in on the team.

I didn't even talk about big vs wing defensive impact...big man's game and all. Jordan is phenomenal as he is the only GOAT level player that is under 6'6'. All the others are 6'9'+ (bird,magic,russell, kareem, lebron - argue all you want, duncan, hakeem, wilt). Or whistles and special refereeing, lebron gets some but it's not on the same level with jordan.

Jordan dominated the era of great bigs. The greatest skilled big and the most dominant big were included in that package. Ironically, the Bulls perimeter defense had more impact than the many great defensive bigs of Jordan's era did.

Jordan is just a GOAT level player with the GOAT media. That's what set him appart and that's why we hear this constant crap about him being an untouchable god. He isn't. He had his fair share of bad days. Bad shooting. Bad leadership. Bad whistles for defenders.

Actually he didn't have his fair share. He had far less bad important games than anybody. In fact I will guarantee you that I can show you three or four times as many bad series/games by any other top player, even second best isn't going to look good next to Jordan. That was his most remarkable trait. He always came to play. You can't name two series where he was outplayed. I doubt he's ever cost his team a series. There aren't three series where another player played better than him. He's definitely different in that regards.

[colts19]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]TEAMs do win rings. That is why MJ was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, couldn't beat the Pistons in three straight post-seasons, and didn't win a ring until he had the best supporting rosters in the league.

That is why Russell's Celtics, the most stacked rosters of all-time, and with the most clutch supporting (and LEADING players, like Havlicek in '68 and '69) won 11 rings. Hell, his '58 team BARELY lost with him missing over half of the series, and his team playing better without him, than with him.

Kareem? Was the best player in the league in the entire decade of the 70's. And played on TWO teams that went to the Finals, and won ONE ring...in his 10 prime seasons. He also was swept with HCA in one, lost another with HCA in the first round, was beaten with stacked rosters, TWICE, by a Seattle team with one borderline HOF player, and missed the playoffs entirely in two straight seasons.

Shaq? Swept SIX times in the playoffs. Hell, he went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, and was awful in one of their series H2H's.

Bird? Lost with HCA SEVEN times, and was either ordinary, or awful in most of them. Hell, he won a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Hakeem? Wasn't even considered a Top-5 player for the vast majority of his career, and won ONE MVP in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. In 18 seasons he played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a high of 58 wins. He only went to four Conference Finals, three Finals, and won two rings in seasons in which MJ took the year off, or his TEAMMATES overwhelmed Shaq's. He also missed the playoffs HALF of his career, and was wiped out in the First Round EIGHT times.

Kobe? Without question, the WORST Finals' performer of all of the Top-10 players of all-time. Single handedly shot his team's out of the Finals in '04 and '08. And his last games in all of his Finals are among the worst of all-time.

You may not realize this but your constant picking stats to use against other great players tend to wear on people. I have always been a big Wilt fan, and hope that you try to be a little more fair in the way you post things.

Wilts only weakness was his free throw shooting, but you can't even admit that. You change it to Wilt had a greater impact at the free throw line than the great free throw shooters did because he shot so many. When it comes to Wilt you only look at the positive, How about the negative. All those free throws that he missed had to cost a game or two. Maybe even a Championship or 2,3 or 4. Wilt had 4 seasons where he missed more free thows in a season than Larry Bird missed his whole career. Season of 624, 527, 553 and 579. Bird missed 511 in thirteen years. Wilt missed 5805.

Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird. What do they have in common. None of them were Historically bad at any part of the game. Wilt for all of his greatness, was by far the worst ever among the great plays. None of these players were perfect, but Come on Man.

[Pointguard]

Wilts only weakness was his free throw shooting, but you can't even admit that. You change it to Wilt had a greater impact at the free throw line than the great free throw shooters did because he shot so many. When it comes to Wilt you only look at the positive, How about the negative. All those free throws that he missed had to cost a game or two. Maybe even a Championship or 2,3 or 4. Wilt had 4 seasons where he missed more free thows in a season than Larry Bird missed his whole career. Season of 624, 527, 553 and 579. Bird missed 511 in thirteen years. Wilt missed 5805.

Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird. What do they have in common. None of them were Historically bad at any part of the game. Wilt for all of his greatness, was by far the worst ever among the great plays. None of these players were perfect, but Come on Man.[/B]

I think Lazeruss responds to the onslaught against Wilt. People who are trying to take everything away from Wilt. Even you are talking about his weakness when he arguably had more extraordinary strengths than any other player ever.

Russell was a bad foul shooter too, in case you didn't know. Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders.

[colts19]

I think Lazeruss responds to the onslaught against Wilt. People who are trying to take everything away from Wilt. Even you are talking about his weakness when he arguably had more extraordinary strengths than any other player ever.

Russell was a bad foul shooter too, in case you didn't know. Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders.

I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt. I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.

[Psileas]

I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt. I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.

It's exactly what anti-Wilt guys do for Wilt vs the others. Honestly, I don't see many who can be seen as impartial enough to blame Laz for being so without being hypocrites.
Btw, not all fields can realistically count the same. As bad a FT shooter as Wilt was, the impact of bad FT shooting usually doesn't come close to matching the impact of bad FG shooting and bad defense. 3 bad defensive plays that will lead to 3 opponent layups count as much as 6 missed FT's and so do 3 missed FG's by someone who shot 7-20 instead of 10-20.
So, if there was a game when Wilt missed 6 FT's and his team lost by 1 but we took all the potential (and realistic) plays that could have won the game for Wilt's team, there would be dozens of bad plays to attribute to just about everyone out there and most ignore just about all of them save for Wilt's FT's (and, yes, obviously FT's are the technically easiest part and Wilt was among the worst at it, but he was similarly among the best at the toughest part of it - FG's, which more than evens out).