***Who was the Closer for the 00-02 Lakers?***

[32Dayz]

PART 1

Sup everyone.

I've just finished a couple weeks worth of research compiling some data that wouldn't otherwise be available anywhere online or in any reference materiel.
This Data was compiled from every 4th Quarter from every playoff game the LA Lakers played from 2000-2002.
I was able to gather perhaps 99% of the Data I wanted from these games.

There was a small amount of Data I was unable to get since 3 games were unavailable to watch online and the play by play for them did not exist for them.
Games 1 and 4 from the 2000 Semi-Finals (LA vs PHO) and game 3 from the 2001 Semi-Finals (LA @ SAC) were unavailable to watch online and have no PBP.
(play by play)


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Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3

Many people have been telling me that Shaq from 01-02 was incapable of scoring in the 4th quarter, that somehow his amazing ability to Dominate and Score against most defenses dissipates when the last 12 minute period starts and that Kobe "thankfully" was there to close out games for the Lakers.

I disagreed with this notion, from being a huge LA Fan during the Shaq years I watched most of their playoff games and always felt that Shaq was an "Elite Closer" and that more often then not if he wasn't leading the team in scoring in that Final period he was at the very least contributing a fair amount of points, not to mention the fact that he was still relied upon to anchor the defense for his LA Team.

Lets quickly examine some numbers from the 2000-2002 season.

The point of this thread is not to discredit Bryant as a closer (because he was certainly a very good one in that period of time) but to Credit Oneal for his ability to close out games and score points in that Final period. I also feel that considering the amount of defensive pressure he faced during that (those) years adds a bit of specialness to anytime he closed out a game since he was almost always the focus of the opposing teams defense and would face constant double and triple teams.

Anyway.. on to the numbers.

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Who was the closer? Who was the man taking the big shots and closing out games for the Lakers in their early 00 3Peat?

The answer (my answer) : Shaq was the main "closer" for LA from 2000-2002.
He closed out far more games and series then Kobe did.

Secondary Answer : Since Kobe also closed out a series or two and a whole bunch of games in 01 and 02 its unfair to give all the credit to Shaq. Shaq and Kobe were both the main closers for the 01 and 02 LA teams while Shaq was the main closer for the 00 Squad.

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Shaq from 00-02 scored a total of 388 Points in the 4th Quarter (Playoffs)

Kobe from 00-02 scored a total of 351 Points in the 4th Quarter (Playoffs)

Not really a big difference, Shaq scored more points but Kobe wasn't far behind.
To truly see who was more valuable in tight games under pressure we have to further examine the numbers and the games.

First let me say that all statistics are based on the 00-02 Playoffs.

Lets go series by series and see who was the Closer in each one.

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00 First-Round VS SAC 4QScoring

Shaq
G1 : 12 ||| (6-8 | FT = 0/0)
G2 : 8 ||| 1AST (4-4 | FT = 0/0)
G3 : 2 ||| (1-4)
G4 : 5 ||| (1-2 | FT = 3/4)
G5 : 4 ||| 1AST (2-3 | FT = 0/1)
Combined : 31 / 6.2ppg

Kobe
G1 : 4 ||| ( 2-3 0-0 | FT = 0-0 )
G2 : 2 ||| ( 1-3 0-0 | FT = 0-0 )
G3 : 16 ||| (5-9 1-2 | FT = 5-6 )
G4 : 11 ||| (5-12 0-3 | FT = 1-3)
G5 : 0 |||
Combined : 33 / 6.6ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 79 - 91 LA Leads 12 Point Lead (W)
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 64 - 83 LA Leads - 19 Point Lead (W)
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 71 - 66 LA Leads - 5 Point Lead (L)
G4 : Score at start of 4th : 66 - 73 SAC Leads - 7 Point Deficit (L)
G5 : Score at start of 4th : 62 - 89 LA Leads - 27 Point Lead (W)

Who was the Closer? : There was no "Closer" in this series.

They had large leads (10+) in all 3 of their wins.
If I had to name a closer for this series it would be Shaq since he contributed and scored far more points in the 3 Wins.

Shaq scored 24 Points on 12-15 shooting and had 2 Assists in the 3 Wins ||| Kobe had 6 Points on 3-6 shooting.

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00 Semi-Finalz VS PHO 4QScoring

Shaq
G1 : 7
G2 : 10 ||| 1AST (4-5 | FT = 2/4)
G3 : 11
G4 : No DATA Available
G5 : 0 |||
Combined : 21 / 7ppg

Kobe
G1 : No DATA Available
G2 : 3 ||| 3AST ( 1-3 0-1 | FT = 1-2 )
G3 : 10
G4 : No DATA Available
G5 : 0 ||| ( 0-1 0-0 | FT = 0-0 )
Combined : 13 / 4.33ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 60 - 75 - LA Leads 15 Point Lead (W)
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 65 - 74 LA Leads - 9 Point Lead (W)
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 75 - 76 PHO Leads - 1 Point Deficit (W)
G4 : Score at start of 4th : 71 - 93 PHO Leads - 22 Point Deficit (L)
G5 : Score at start of 4th : 40 - 68 LA Leads - 28 Point Lead (W)

Who was the Closer? : Dont have the full Data for this series but I'd say its a tie for now.

They contributed about the same amount on offense in Games 2 and 3 which were still relatively close by the start of the 4th with Shaq contributing slightly more.

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00 CNFinalz VS Portland 4QScoring

Shaq
G1 : 16 ||| 2AST
G2 : 14 ||| --- (5-6)
G3 : 5 ||| --- FT = 1/1
G4 : 10 ||| 1AST --- (2-4 | FT = 6/6)
G5 : 6 ||| --- (2-2 | FT = 2/5)
G6 : 4 ||| 3AST --- FT = 1/1
G7 : 9 ||| 1AST --- (3-3 | FT = 3/4)
Combined : 64 / 9.14ppg

Kobe
G1 : 0
G2 : 0 ||| 1AST
G3 : 5 ||| 1AST
G4 : 2 ||| ( 0-2 0-1 | FT = 2-2 )
G5 : 4 ||| ( 1-2 0-1 | FT = 2-3)
G6 : 12 ||| 1AST (4-8 4-6 | FT = 0-2)
G7 : 9 ||| 1AST (3-6 0-1 | FT = 3-6)
Combined : 32 / 4.57 ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 72 - 85 LA Leads - 13 Point Lead (W)
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 76 - 53 POR Leads - 23 Point Deficit (L)
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 72 - 71 LA Leads - 1 Point Lead (W)
G4 : Score at start of 4th : 76 - 66 LA Leads - 10 Point Lead (W)
G5 : Score at start of 4th : 80 - 67 POR Leads 13 Point Deficit (L)
G6 : Score at start of 4th : 63 - 71 POR Leads - 8 Point Deficit (L)
G7 : Score at start of 4th : 71 - 58 POR Leads - 13 Point Deficit (W)

Who was the Closer? : Shaq was the closer in this series.

He doubled Kobes production in the 4th Quarters over the series (64 - 32) and contributed more in key wins.

In Game 1 he carried the Lakers with an insane 41/11/7/5 performance and scored 16 in the 4th to keep Portland from making any sort of comeback.

In Game 3 both Shaq and Kobe contributed an equal amount on offense in the victory.

In Game 4 Portland was still within striking distance at the start of the 4th but was put away by Shaq who had 10 Points and an Assist and hit all 6 of his FT's in the final period. Kobe only had 2 points that game and was 0-2 from the field.

In Game 7 Kobe came up big "slightly" out producing Shaq statistically and contributing 9 Points in the Final Quarter.

Shaq however had to deal with constant double and triple teams and (team meetings) that Portland held around him throughout the entire game.
This obviously aided a young Kobe who thanks to Shaq had an excess of space on the floor in which to create and score and didn't have to worry much about double teams.

Shaq was just as big as Kobe in terms of being clutch in that Game 7 matching Kobe's 4th quarter production with 9 Points and doing so more efficiently.
He was practically flawless offensively going 3-3 from the field and 3-4 from the FT Line in the final quarter as opposed to Bryant who went 3-6 from the field and 3-6 from the line.
I find it odd how many people choose to forget Shaqs contribution in this game and only bring up Kobe saying how "Clutch" he was when in reality Shaq was by far the Clutchest player in this game and far more Clutch throughout the entire series.

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00 Finalz VS Indiana 4QScoring

Shaq
G1 : 12
G2 : 17 --- FT = 9/15
G3 : 7
G4 : 16 --- FT = 6/11
G5 : 6
G6 : 13
Combined : 71 / 11.83 ppg

Kobe
G1 : 2
G2 : 0
G3 : 0
G4 : 12
G5 : 0
G6 : 8
Combined : 22 / 3.67 ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 71 - 77 LA Leads - 6 Point Lead (W)
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 69 - 73 LA Leads - 4 Point Lead (W)
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 66 - 79 IND Leads - 13 Point Deficit (L)
G4 : Score at start of 4th : 80 - 77 LA Leads - 3 Point Lead (W)
G5 : Score at start of 4th : 67 - 86 IND Leads - 19 Point Deficit (L)
G6 : Score at start of 4th : 84 - 79 IND Leads - 5 Point Deficit (W)

Who was the Closer? : Shaquille Oneal.

Shaq scored far more points in the 4th Quarters over the series (71-22) and contributed far more points in Clutch time situations.
Shaq scored 58 Points in the 4th over the 4 LA wins all which were still very close by the start of the 4th as opposed to Kobe who produced 22 Points in the same games.

Even in Game 4 where Kobe stepped up after Shaq fouled out and led the team to a win it was Shaq's utter dominance on the 0ffensive end that kept the Lakers in the game before he fouled out. Shaq scored an incredible 16 4th Quarter Points before he fouled out, 4 more then Kobe did in the same game.

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[32Dayz]

PART 2

01 First-Round VS POR 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 7 --- FT = 5/7
G2: 5 --- FT = 1/1
G3: 6 --- FT = 0/0
Combined : 18 / 6ppg

Kobe
G1: 15
G2: 10
G3: 4
Combined : 29 / 9.67ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 72 - 74 LA Leads - 2 Point Lead
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 65 - 80 LA Leads - 15 Point Lead
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 72 - 79 LA Leads - 7 Point Lead

Notes : Lakers steam rolled Portland, most games were already blowouts by the end of the 3rd quarter or middle of the 4th and LA tends to leave Kobe in late in blow out wins far more often then with Shaq who was older and who Phil preferred to rest more often.

Who was the Closer? : "No Closer"

Despite G1 being close by the start of the 4th it was quickly blown open in the starting minutes of the quarter thanks to both Shaq and Kobe.
Kobe did contribute more in the first game and slightly more over the last 2 games but that was more due to coaching strategy (Phil resting Shaq) then because Kobe was outproducing Shaq and Clutch play was not really needed in any of the games.

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01 Semi-Finalz VS SAC 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 13
G2: 12
G3:
G4: 7 --- FT = 3/5
*** Combined : 32 / 10.67ppg

Kobe
G1: 4
G2: 4
G3:
G4: 15
***Combined : 23 / 7.67ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 78 - 84 LA Leads - 6 Point Lead
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 56 - 74 LA Leads - 18 Point Lead
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 65 - 54 LA Leads - 11 Point Lead
G4 : Score at start of 4th : 80 - 84 LA Leads - 4 Point Lead

Who was the Closer? : "Tie"

Shaq was the Closer in G1, Kobe was the closer in G4 neither of the other two games were very close by the start of the 4th so even if Shaq contributed more I wouldnt automatically give this to him. Shaq did however contribute more in G4 then Kobe did in G1 which gives him a bit of an edge overall and he contributed far more in G2 despite it being a blowout. Perhaps if Shaq had an edge in G3 comparable to what he had in G2 or G1 i'd call him the closer for this series but without that info I think saying its a "Tie" would be more appropriate.

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01 CNFinalz VS Spurs 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 4
G2: 5
G3: 6
G4: 2
Combined : 17 / 4.25ppg

Kobe
G1: 13
G2: 9 - last 3 came on wide open shot (assist Shaq)
G3: 11 - Blowout win no clutchness needed
G4: 6
Combined : 39 / 9.75ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 80 - 66 LA Leads - 14 Point Lead
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 66 - 67 SAS Leads - 1 Point Deficit
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 64 - 86 LA Leads - 22 Point Lead
G4 : Score at start of 4th : 66 - 86 LA Leads - 20 Point Lead

Notes : Lakers steam rolled the Spurs, most games were already blowouts by the end of the 3rd quarter or middle of the 4th and LA tends to leave Kobe in late in blow out wins far more often then with Shaq who was older and who Phil preferred to rest more often.
LA sets record for largest margin of victory over an opponent in a CNFinals at 20+ PPG.

Consensus : "Tie" or "No Closer"

Both Kobe + Shaq contributed an equal amount in G2 which was the only game in the series that wasnt a blowout by the end of the 3rd Quarter.
Kobe scored 22 more points over the series in the 4th Quarters but did so mostly in games that were already far out of reach and Phil preferred to rest Shaq in games moreso then Kobe in blowout games.

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01 Finalz VS Sixers 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 5
G2: 4
G3: 6
G4: 4
G5: 3
Combined : 22 / 4.4ppg

Kobe
G1: 6
G2: 5
G3: 4
G4: 4
G5: 5
Combined : 24 / 4.8ppg

Consensus : "Tie" or "No Closer"

Sixers never really had a chance, both Shaq and Kobe contributed an Equal amount over the 4th Quarters.

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02 First-Round VS POR 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 6
G2: 8
G3: 8
Combined : 22 / 7.3ppg

Kobe
G1: 8
G2: 1
G3: 6
Combined : 15 / 5ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 62 - 68 LA Leads - 6 Point Lead (W)
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 63 - 77 LA Leads - 14 Point Lead (W)
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 67 - 67 Game Tied (W)

Consensus : "Tie" or "No Closer"

Portland never had a chance, both Shaq/Kobe contributed an equal amount in over Games 1 and 3 Combined which were the only two games that were close. Shaq had an edge in overall points scored in the 4th over the series but mainly because he scored far more in G2 which was a straight blowout.

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02 Semi-Finalz VS SAS 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 13
G2: 4
G3: 0
G4: 1
G5: 4
Combined : 22 / 4.4ppg

Kobe
G1: 5
G2: 0
G3: 11
G4: 12
G5: 10
Combined : 38 / 7.6ppg

G1 : Score at start of 4th : 61 - 57 SAS Leads - 4 Point Deficit (W)
G2 : Score at start of 4th : 73 - 65 SAS Leads - 8 Point Deficit (L)
G3 : Score at start of 4th : 74 - 71 LA Leads - 3 Point Lead (W)
G4 : Score at start of 4th : 67 - 75 SAS Leads - 8 Point Deficit (W)
G5 : Score at start of 4th : 61 - 62 LA Leads - 1 Point Lead (W)

Consensus : Kobe Bryant

While Shaq did close out Game 1 and chipped in a few points in the Final two games of the series Kobe was clearly the Closer going into double digits in the 4th Q of the last 3 games and playing at a very high level.

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02 CNFinalz VS SAC 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 3
G2: 7
G3: 3
G4: 6
G5: 0
G6: 12
G7 + OT : 15
Combined : 46 / 6.6 ppg

Kobe
G1: 10
G2: 5
G3: 16
G4: 6
G5: 6
G6: 11
G7 + 0T : 6
Combined : 60 / 8.5 ppg

Consensus : Shaquille Oneal

While at first glance looking at the point totals you may think that Kobe was the closer for this series but he was not.
Both piled up plenty of Clutch buckets in this series and I was tempted to Label the Duo together as the closers for this series but I feel Shaq deserves the honor.

Shaq scored 33 Points in the 3 Close games they won while Kobe chipped in 23 Points.
G7 in particular where they went into 0T Shaq really came through scoring 15 points in the 4th Q + OT while Kobe only chipped in 6.

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02 Finalz VS NJN 4QScoring

Shaq
G1: 14
G2: 4
G3: 5
G4: 6
Combined : 29 / 7.25ppg

Kobe
G1: 2
G2: 8
G3: 12
G4: 11
Combined : 28 / 7ppg

Consensus : "No Closer"

Nets never really had a chance so its hard to Label anyone a "closer" for this series Shaq scored more points overall in the 4TH Q for the series but Kobe scored more in the Final two games, perhaps in a sweep the "last 2 games" don't hold as much importance as they would in a 5-7 game series so I'll say they were both the closer of this series with Kobe scoring 28 in the 4TH Quarters over the Sweep and Shaq chipping in 29.

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Final Tally's and Note's.

Points scored in the 4th Quarter from 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 388
Kobe - 351

Series in which a player was the "Main Closer" 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 3 Series (00 POR, 00 IND, 02 SAC)
Kobe - 1 Series (02 SAS)

Series in which a player has an argument as the "Main Closer" 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 1 Series (01 SAC)
Kobe - 1 Series (01 SAS)

[ClutchBucketz]

I think when people say he couldn't score in the 4th quarter they mean the last few minutes of the 4th..

[32Dayz]

I think when people say he couldn't score in the 4th quarter they mean the last few minutes of the 4th..

Yea but that isn't true.

LA usually ran their offense through Shaq in the final minutes and in the 01 and 02 playoffs (especially 02) he actually shot very well from the FT Line in the 4th Quarters.
(I have the stats)

So he was never really a liability in late game situations.
I can only remember maybe 2 or 3 games in that entire 3 year period where he shot poorly enough from the stripe that he was taken out for 2-3 minutes in the middle of the 4th, but he was always on the court in the final 2 minutes.

For the most part he stayed Clutch in 4th Quarters and was insanely efficient not only from the floor but also shot a higher % from the stripe (in most games).

[ClutchBucketz]

Then why'd you post the entire 4th quarters?

[32Dayz]

Then why'd you post the entire 4th quarters?

Because in close games every 4th quarter bucket can be considered "Clutch"

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe

[32Dayz]

Kobe

Any reasoning behind your opinion?

Shaq closed out more games from 00-02 scored more points in the 4th quarter (especially in close games) and closed out more series.

Shaq was clearly the main Closer for LA from 00-02.

btw : Quick lol @ the two angry Kobe Homers (Joker32 and Loser3)

[Deuce Bigalow]

because Kobe was the closer

[32Dayz]

because Kobe was the closer

Great logic bub.
I asked you to explain your opinion not repeat it.

Shaq closed out more games and series so that makes him the closer.



Shaq was the one putting up points in the Final minutes of the 4th quarter in more important games and series so he is the Closer.

Its simply factual and not something you can disagree with.

[32Dayz]

yeah I know im an idiot

Yea.. I know too.
Shaq led LA in 4th Quarter scoring from 00-02.
Shaq was the one scoring for LA in the Final Minutes of more big games and far more series so he is the Closer.

If you care to offer reasoning why that doesn't make sense feel free to chime in.

Cant argue with Facts dum-dum.

[32Dayz]

I like picturesss derp

Points scored in the 4th Quarter from 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 388
Kobe - 351

Series in which a player was the "Main Closer" 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 3 Series (00 POR, 00 IND, 02 SAC)
Kobe - 1 Series (02 SAS)

^ - This must really make you mad.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I lol'd hard, especially the last one

[32Dayz]

Points scored in the 4th Quarter from 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 388
Kobe - 351

Series in which a player was the "Main Closer" 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 3 Series (00 POR, 00 IND, 02 SAC)
Kobe - 1 Series (02 SAS)

^ - This must really make you homers mad.

[32Dayz]

Kobe homers getting sh** on.

Points scored in the 4th Quarter from 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 388
Kobe - 351

Series in which a player was the "Main Closer" 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 3 Series (00 POR, 00 IND, 02 SAC)
Kobe - 1 Series (02 SAS)

^ - This must really make you mad.