Pre-injuries Grant Hill vs. Scottie Pippen

[DatWasNashty]

That I agree with. I'll put a healthy, prime Penny above either one because he's a legit offensive #1, something I don't think either Pippen or Hill were meant to be. Shaq/Penny was much closer to Shaq/Kobe than it was to Jordan/Pippen.

I'm not too sure about that. Penny was a legit offensive #1 but his defense and rebounding were considerably worse than Scottie's. He could play tenacious defense at times but whatever quickness he displayed on offense didn't translate to the defensive end. His post defense against bigger guards was also mediocre.

I can see where you're coming from, though. Penny was clutch, more of an aggressive scorer, mentally tougher and his athleticism blows Pippen's out of the water. He had a nasty first step, was way faster laterally, end to end and from a dead stop. Better jumper off the dribble and could penetrate just as well. He had a better post game, though. Better than any guard save for Jordan. Just displayed terrific footwork and a bunch of moves (counters, turnarounds, step throughs etc). They were matched up in the 1996 ECF and Penny routinely had Scottie's lunch. He dominated Jordan in a match up early in that season. He just performed with an effortless grace while playing like a savvy vet simultaneously.

I'm kind of skeptical about picking him over Scottie but I think it depends on your team needs more than anything.

I also think Penny was better. The fact that he could post up almost any guard defending him and hit 3s made him a better scorer than Hill, IMO. I also feel he was a better passer, the assist numbers are almost identical, but I think most who watched them will agree with me, and a reason for Penny's assists not being higher is because he wasn't in the ball-dominant role Hill was. A lot of Orlando's offense went through Shaq in the post. Penny was also more clutch and a better leader than Hill, IMO. People look back on the stats and see that Hill's rebounding made his stats look a lot more impressive, but really, i didn't notice Hill's rebounding to be the difference in impact when I was watching them, besides, Penny had both Shaq and Horace Grant in his prime. A Past his prime Penny averaged 6 boards with the Suns in 2000 and the difference between Hill and Penny was defensive rebounding which isn't a fair comparison because when you don't have very good big men on your team, defensive boards which often go uncontested will go to the perimeter player easier, this happened with Jason Kidd a lot. Penny had Shaq and Grant in the paint to grab the rebounds.

Yeah. Penny was kind of held back by their offense. It certainly helped the team because they were better off running the offense through O'Neal but Penny could've done more (statistically speaking) if the offense catered to his game. They moved him to 2 guard in that 1997 series with Miami and he EXPLODED to the extent of 31 a game on 47% shooting. For instance, MJ only managed to put up 30 ppg, 3 apg, 8 rpg, 2 spg on an abysmal 38% from the field against the defense. Furthermore, Orlando most likely wins that series if Grant was healthy, Seikaly didn't go down with a broken foot and Scott/Nick Anderson actually managed to show up. Just a testament to the greatness of Lil Penny.

I definitely agree about Hill's stats which are a bit misleading in comparison to Penny. He was placed in a more ball dominant role and had the keys to run the team from the beginning. Penny, meanwhile, had to adjust his game a bit and be more of a playmaker (hence the Magic comparisons) which he did great job of.

About the rebounds, I think offensive rebounds are more telling about your skill and instincts. Hardaway topped off at 2.3/game in his rookie year while mainly playing away from the basket (hadn't developed his post game or bulked up by this time) so that's a pretty telling stat. Hill never approached those numbers despite playing with much worse rebounders although the Pistons were a team that liked to slow things down like Fratello's Cavs and Riley's heat.

[Da_Realist]

I have a couple of games between Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill. Grant Hill in his prime gave Pippen more problems than anyone. Too bad his career was slowed by injuries. I'll post what I have here in this thread.

Grant Hill blows by Pippen and dunks on Wennington

Grant Hill drives past Scottie Pippen then spins past Dennis Rodman

[rammerman]

as a number 1, hill

as a number 2, pippen

[DatWasNashty]

I have a couple of games between Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill. Grant Hill in his prime gave Pippen more problems than anyone. Too bad his career was slowed by injuries. I'll post what I have here in this thread.

Grant Hill blows by Pippen and dunks on Wennington

Grant Hill drives past Scottie Pippen then spins past Dennis Rodman

Thanks.

I think early 1990s Mullin gave Pippen a lot of trouble as well. I remember they had to switch Jordan on to him and he proceeded to shut him down in a game early in the 1991-92 season. It was pretty telling because Jordan hardly switched on to SFs during that time period. Mullin must've been some sort of mismatch for Scottie.

[ginobli2311]

as a number 1, hill

as a number 2, pippen

i tend to agree with this. although i really think hill is under-rated here pre injury. the dude could do everything. he had no weaknesses. he could play a floor game and take over when he needed to. he was a very good defender as well. very similar to pippen with more raw talent and upside in my opinion.

i'll take hill for sure as my number 1 guy. number 2 is debatable. i probably lean towards pippen, but its a tough call for me.

as for penny. i think he had the most raw talent/upside than both hill/pippen as well. he could have been magic 2.0 in the right situation with great coaching. such a shame that penny/hill dealt with injuries their entire primes really. could have been two of the best all around players of all time. could have been two of the best 25 players of all time in the right situations with health. sucks we missed out on that....and sucks even more for them.

[Da_Realist]

Grant Hill had the talent, but I don't think he had the temperament. He was immediately the best player on the Pistons and had to haul a heavy load from jump. Dumars was a good mentor, but he himself never had to bear that much weight for his team to win. If Grant had another guy on that team that was good enough to ease Grant in and show him how it's done, he could have been something special. Something like what Magic had in LA, Pippen had in Chicago, Duncan had in San Antonio and what Penny had in Orlando.

[sh0wtime]

We got to see how good Hill was during his prime, but we did not get to see how good he was during his absolute prime, which he was just entering before he was decimated by injuries. Grant Hill was on his way to becoming the face of the NBA after Jordan retired and he would have been the one that carried the torch into the new millenium and been the poster boy for the NBA.

He was coming off of a 26/6.6/5.2 on near 50% shooting and led his fairly weak Pistons team to the playoffs as Stackhouse was really the only other star on the team. The rest of the team was filled up with role players like Lindsey Hunter and Christian Laettner. Although these two were very solid role players, the team was definitely lacking outside of Grant and Stack.

Don't get me wrong, Scottie Pippen is an All-Time great and most likely a top 5 small forward to ever play the game, but if Pippen was the first option for the duration of his career, a large part of what makes him so great (6 Championships) will be gone because I don't think that he had what it took to lead a team to the promise land as the main man.

He was an elite second fiddle, perhaps the greatest of All-Time, but he did not posses the leadership capability nor did he have "it" (you know what I mean, at least I hope as it would be hard to explain lol) to be an elite first option and franchise player. Grant Hill had "it" and, if he was not decimated by injuries and management put the right players around him, he would have led his team to multiple championships.

If Grant was never hit by injuries and had a healthy career, he would be a top 10 player of All-Time and would've gave Larry Bird a run for his money as well (although I don't think he ever would've surpassed Bird, he would be the undisputed second best small forward to ever play the game). I don't think that Pippen would not have been top 10 ever if he was the number one option for his entire career.

It truly is a shame that Hill was hit so hard by injuries, because the NBA and us as fans, missed out on seeing a truly special player, and one that does not come along often.

Pippen obviously had a better career, but in terms of potential, talent, skill and so on im gona go with Grant Hill on this one.

[Da_Realist]

We got to see how good Hill was during his prime, but we did not get to see how good he was during his absolute prime, which he was just entering before he was decimated by injuries. Grant Hill was on his way to becoming the face of the NBA after Jordan retired and he would have been the one that carried the torch into the new millenium and been the poster boy for the NBA.

He was coming off of a 26/6.6/5.2 on near 50% shooting and led his fairly weak Pistons team to the playoffs as Stackhouse was really the only other star on the team. The rest of the team was filled up with role players like Lindsey Hunter and Christian Laettner. Although these two were very solid role players, the team was definitely lacking outside of Grant and Stack.

Don't get me wrong, Scottie Pippen is an All-Time great and most likely a top 5 small forward to ever play the game, but if Pippen was the first option for the duration of his career, a large part of what makes him so great (6 Championships) will be gone because I don't think that he had what it took to lead a team to the promise land as the main man.

He was an elite second fiddle, perhaps the greatest of All-Time, but he did not posses the leadership capability nor did he have "it" (you know what I mean, at least I hope as it would be hard to explain lol) to be an elite first option and franchise player. Grant Hill had "it" and, if he was not decimated by injuries and management put the right players around him, he would have led his team to multiple championships.

If Grant was never hit by injuries and had a healthy career, he would be a top 10 player of All-Time and would've gave Larry Bird a run for his money as well (although I don't think he ever would've surpassed Bird, he would be the undisputed second best small forward to ever play the game). I don't think that Pippen would not have been top 10 ever if he was the number one option for his entire career.

It truly is a shame that Hill was hit so hard by injuries, because the NBA and us as fans, missed out on seeing a truly special player, and one that does not come along often.

Pippen obviously had a better career, but in terms of potential, talent, skill and so on im gona go with Grant Hill on this one.

Allan Houston should have stayed in Detroit. That was a lethal offensive tandem. I'm not sure Grant Hill in his prime isn't better than Lebron James right now. He was a better rebounder and was just as good (if not better) passer. What really separates the two? Maybe not as explosive offensively, due to his temperament but also because he didn't play in a league that catered to creating star wing players. He played better off the ball and was actually a good defender.

[ginobli2311]

We got to see how good Hill was during his prime, but we did not get to see how good he was during his absolute prime, which he was just entering before he was decimated by injuries. Grant Hill was on his way to becoming the face of the NBA after Jordan retired and he would have been the one that carried the torch into the new millenium and been the poster boy for the NBA.

He was coming off of a 26/6.6/5.2 on near 50% shooting and led his fairly weak Pistons team to the playoffs as Stackhouse was really the only other star on the team. The rest of the team was filled up with role players like Lindsey Hunter and Christian Laettner. Although these two were very solid role players, the team was definitely lacking outside of Grant and Stack.

Don't get me wrong, Scottie Pippen is an All-Time great and most likely a top 5 small forward to ever play the game, but if Pippen was the first option for the duration of his career, a large part of what makes him so great (6 Championships) will be gone because I don't think that he had what it took to lead a team to the promise land as the main man.

He was an elite second fiddle, perhaps the greatest of All-Time, but he did not posses the leadership capability nor did he have "it" (you know what I mean, at least I hope as it would be hard to explain lol) to be an elite first option and franchise player. Grant Hill had "it" and, if he was not decimated by injuries and management put the right players around him, he would have led his team to multiple championships.

If Grant was never hit by injuries and had a healthy career, he would be a top 10 player of All-Time and would've gave Larry Bird a run for his money as well (although I don't think he ever would've surpassed Bird, he would be the undisputed second best small forward to ever play the game). I don't think that Pippen would not have been top 10 ever if he was the number one option for his entire career.

It truly is a shame that Hill was hit so hard by injuries, because the NBA and us as fans, missed out on seeing a truly special player, and one that does not come along often.

Pippen obviously had a better career, but in terms of potential, talent, skill and so on im gona go with Grant Hill on this one.

great post.

i disagree a little in that i think hill's peak would have been top 15 of all time considering guys like kobe/lebron/duncan/shaq/kg in this era are all better players than him.

but i agree with everything else. hill could have gone down as one of the greatest to ever play.

[Niquesports]

And? That is a good thing. That is why he won wherever he went. He was not a ballhog trying to take 25 shots a night. Players like Pippen and Duncan (he always was in the 20-23 ppg range in his prime, aside from one year at 25.5)>Dominique and AI types. Check out the W-L column.



http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bull...great-teammate

The answer is Pippen. They are similar offensively, although Hill was a bit better, but Pippen crushes him defensively. Pippen also was a superior leader.

Sometimes people just say anything. What are you basing that Pip was a better leader? IF there was any area that Hill was better for certain it would be leadership. As far as the Ai and Dominique comment Pippen couldn't avg 30 ppg if he tried. I dont understand people who think just ball hogs do that. That is just as much a skill and talent as getting assist. IF you ever played the game you would know how hard it is to avg 30 ppg. Cant everybody do that .Grant would come much closer than Pippen would though and Grant pre injury wasnt a bad defender either

[Da_Realist]

OT Classic!

Chicago Bulls @ Detroit Pistons 02-15-96

Grant Hill 20 pts (9-18 fgs), 10 rebs, 9 asts, 1 stl
Scottie Pippen 23 pts (7-23 fgs), 13 rebs, 6 rebs, 3 stls, 2 blks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...602150DET.html

[97 bulls]

Im picking pippen. You guys forget that hill never to defer to a player like jordan. And for the most part, they scored about even. Now hills had a spike with the 26 ppg, but give pippen a few year without mj and he would've too.

And for the life of me, I just can't understand why guys continue to prop the myth that pip wasn't a leader. Why do you say that? What constitutes a leader in your eyes? I really want to know.

[wakencdukest]

Pippen was probably the better all around player because of his elite defense, but not by much. I definitely liked watching Hill play more than Pippen. He was more dynamic.

[Da_Realist]

Christmas Day 1996

Detroit Pistons @ Chicago Bulls 12-25-96

Grant Hill 27 pts (12-24 fgs), 8 rebs, 2 asts, 1 stl, 1 blk
Scottie Pippen 27 pts (11-25 fgs), 8 rebs, 8 asts, 2 stls, 2 blks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...612250CHI.html

[Da_Realist]

Detroit snaps a 19 game losing streak to Chicago behind Grant Hill's triple double.

Chicago Bulls @ Detroit Pistons 04-13-97

Grant Hill 27 pts (11-23 fgs), 12 rebs, 10 asts, 1 stl
Scottie Pippen 21 pts (9-19 fgs), 5 rebs, 3 asts

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...704130DET.html