Might get flamed for this but Bill Russell is not top 5

[CavaliersFTW]

How delusional are you that you would laugh at that? You really think level of competition means nothing?

You really think Bill Russell's Celtics would be winning 11 championships in a league of teams like the terminator Knicks, bad boy Pistons, showtime Lakers, Hakeem's Rockets? The Bill Russell Celtics wouldn't beat the '86 Celtics.

Yes, MJ's 6 rings as by far the best player on his team AT BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR is greatly superior to Bill Russell's 11 rings as the best on one end and mediocre on the other end in an 8 team league full of guys who wouldn't make the cut on a college team these days. It's an absurd comparison.

Wait am I being trolled right now?

Bill Russell's competition? Your well versed in Jordan's era - I'm not surprised. But could you care to explain the teams and players Bill Russell played against? Did you do as much homework about who he played against as you did with MJ?

I'm just going to remind everyone else that against a league of direct center competition in the form of Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy and Jerry Lucas (in a small ass league), Russ cranked 11 titles in only 13 seasons and too add insult to injury a Gold medal + 2 b2b NCAA titles... We're talking 14 titles in only 16 consecutive years. 2 of those 11 NBA rings were as a player-coach. Yah, Bill Russell tha coach who doubles as a center has 2 b2b rings under his belt... And the dude never 3peated, he 8peated... against Wilt f*cking Chamberlain... but his competition is weaker than MJ's?

MJ has 1 Gold 1 NCAA title and 6 NBA rings in 18 active years that spanned 22 years because he actually became aloof in his prime and made a come back past his prime. This isn't even a slight to MJ MJ is an immortal top 5 who could very well be the GOAT but this shit can't be brushed under the rug when some guy tries to pretend MJ's 6 rings somehow adds up to a greater significance than Russell's 11 lmfao... The NBA rings MJ got were a gawdlike impressive pair of 3 peats. Amazing incredible mind boggling feat for any player not named Bill Russell. Period end of discussion P.S. MJ never won against the 1986 Celtics either


Have a nice day and best of luck trying to further explain how 6 is greater than 11 tho. I'm sure it will be full of interesting 1-sided research

[Owl]

Wait am I being trolled right now?

Bill Russell's competition? Your well versed in Jordan's era - I'm not surprised. But could you care to explain the teams and players Bill Russell played against? Did you do as much homework about who he played against as you did with MJ?

I'm just going to remind everyone else that against a league of direct center competition in the form of Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy and Jerry Lucas (in a small ass league), Russ cranked 11 titles in only 13 seasons and too add insult to injury a Gold medal + 2 b2b NCAA titles... We're talking 14 titles in only 16 consecutive years. 2 of those 11 NBA rings were as a player-coach. Yah, Bill Russell tha coach who doubles as a center has 2 b2b rings under his belt... And the dude never 3peated, he 7peated... against Wilt f*cking Chamberlain... but his competition is weaker than MJ's?

MJ has 1 Gold 1 NCAA title and 6 NBA rings in 18 active years that spanned 22 years because he actually became aloof in his prime and made a come back past his prime. This isn't even a slight to MJ MJ is an immortal top 5 who could very well be the GOAT but this shit can't be brushed under the rug when some guy tries to pretend MJ's 6 rings somehow adds up to a greater significance than Russell's 11 lmfao... The NBA rings MJ got were a gawdlike impressive pair of 3 peats. Amazing incredible mind boggling feat for any player not named Bill Russell. Period end of discussion P.S. MJ never won against the 1986 Celtics either


Have a nice day and best of luck trying to further explain how 6 is greater than 11 tho. I'm sure it will be full of interesting 1-sided research

Given how 3-peated is used, Russell 8-peated (if you're going use that turn of phrase).
Sorry just being pedantic.

[CavaliersFTW]

Given how 3-peated is used, Russell 8-peated (if you're going use that turn of phrase).
Sorry just being pedantic.

Typo my bad! Fixed

[PTB Fan]

This should be for a NBA meme or something..

Russell=Wins 11 titles, as arguably the best player, get labeled as overrated and poor man's Ben Wallace

Jordan=Wins 6 titles as the best player, gets labeled as a god and above any other player

[bizil]

Any GOAT list include these things:

Team accolades
Solo Accolades
Longevity being great
Numbers
Impact on the L (things like redefining a position, transcending the sport, etc.)

When u include ALL of these things, Russell has a great case to be a top 5 GOAT. For me personally, here's my top 5:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Russell

So I have Russell number 5. But I think Kobe and Lebron both have a great shot before it's all said and done to get in the top five players of all time. But at the same time, the top five I named are mythic type figures in the sports world. All five are most likely in the top 20-25 athletes in the history of American sports.

But in terms of peak value, I agree with you. Frankly, I wouldn't have Russell in my top five centers peak value wise. I would rather have these guys at center than Russell:

Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Dream
Moses
Robinson
Ewing
Walton
McAdoo

I would arguably even have these guys:

Zo
Gilmore
Reed
Lanier
Howard

I know many are gonna roll their eyes at me about this. But all the centers I named are better scorers than Russell, were great rebounders, and many of them were also great defensive players. Now in terms of defense and rebouning as a package, Russell is arguably the best center of all time. But for me, I want a center who can DOMINATE a game scoring the rock in addition to being a great rebounder and defender. So the last five guys I'm not so sure about. But the first nine guys I named I would take over Russell with no hesitation at all.

[jlauber]

Any GOAT list include these things:

Team accolades
Solo Accolades
Longevity being great
Numbers
Impact on the L (things like redefining a position, transcending the sport, etc.)

When u include ALL of these things, Russell has a great case to be a top 5 GOAT. For me personally, here's my top 5:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Russell

So I have Russell number 5. But I think Kobe and Lebron both have a great shot before it's all said and done to get in the top five players of all time. But at the same time, the top five I named are mythic type figures in the sports world. All five are most likely in the top 20-25 athletes in the history of American sports.

But in terms of peak value, I agree with you. Frankly, I wouldn't have Russell in my top five centers peak value wise. I would rather have these guys at center than Russell:

Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Dream
Moses
Robinson
Ewing
Walton
McAdoo

I would arguably even have these guys:

Zo
Gilmore
Reed
Lanier
Howard

I know many are gonna roll their eyes at me about this. But all the centers I named are better scorers than Russell, were great rebounders, and many of them were also great defensive players. Now in terms of defense and rebouning as a package, Russell is arguably the best center of all time. But for me, I want a center who can DOMINATE a game scoring the rock in addition to being a great rebounder and defender. So the last five guys I'm not so sure about. But the first nine guys I named I would take over Russell with no hesitation at all.

I am not suggesting that Russell was a GREAT scorer, but at his peak, he was at least good. He had seasons of 18 ppg. He had post-season of over 20 ppg. He had post-season games of 30-40 and 30-38. And many rip his FG% (which was around the league average), BUT, he had an 18-29 .702 FINALS in '65. Yes, a .702 FG% in the FINALS. And he followed that up the very next season's FINALS, by LEADING Boston in SCORING.

Of course, aside from Chamberlain, Russell has the highest APG seasons of any all-time great center. The Celtic offense RAN THRU Russell after Cousy retired.

[bizil]

I am not suggesting that Russell was a GREAT scorer, but at his peak, he was at least good. He had seasons of 18 ppg. He had post-season of over 20 ppg. He had post-season games of 30-40 and 30-38. And many rip his FG% (which was around the league average), BUT, he had an 18-29 .702 FINALS in '65. Yes, a .702 FG% in the FINALS. And he followed that up the very next season's FINALS, by LEADING Boston in SCORING.

Of course, aside from Chamberlain, Russell has the highest APG seasons of any all-time great center. The Celtic offense RAN THRU Russell after Cousy retired.

I agree with u. Russell was a good scorer. But if I am looking at other centers, I just prefer more scoring or more size for my center. Russell was pretty much the size of today's SF. Now a guy like McAdoo wasn't the biggest center and is the size of many SF's today. But McAdoo was a prolific scorer and a great rebounder. Other than McAdoo, the top nine centers I named could control the paint scoring and defensively better than Russell. But I still have Russell in my top ten centers of all time peak value wise. But I would rank him at ten. However, the most important list is the GOAT list. And I got Russ number five GOAT. So I give Russ mad props if I feel he's the number five greatest player of all time!

[D.J.]

I personally have him at 6. Even if he's not as individually talented as the top 5, he has the rings. My ranking is Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Russell.

[jlauber]

I agree with u. Russell was a good scorer. But if I am looking at other centers, I just prefer more scoring or more size for my center. Russell was pretty much the size of today's SF. Now a guy like McAdoo wasn't the biggest center and is the size of many SF's today. But McAdoo was a prolific scorer and a great rebounder. Other than McAdoo, the top nine centers I named could control the paint scoring and defensively better than Russell. But I still have Russell in my top ten centers of all time peak value wise. But I would rank him at ten. However, the most important list is the GOAT list. And I got Russ number five GOAT. So I give Russ mad props if I feel he's the number five greatest player of all time!

I wasn't directing my repkly so much at you, as other's here. I certainly respect your opinions. But even I under-rated Russell's offensive contributions for years.

He was CLEARLY a better offensive player than players like Ben Wallace and Tyson Chandler (FG% not withstanding.)

Now, here again, I wouldn't put Russell on the level of the players you mentioned, either. But then the question becomes...how much of a difference maker was Russell on the defensive end? ThaRegul8r posted an interesting article whch illustrated that Russell's defense was worth every bit as much as MJ's offense. I wish I would have saved that article, but in any case, it was a solid argument.

[Pointguard]

Am I the only one that thinks that's really not Jordan. I never seen Jordan sport a peanut head.

[Pointguard]

I am not suggesting that Russell was a GREAT scorer, but at his peak, he was at least good. He had seasons of 18 ppg. He had post-season of over 20 ppg. He had post-season games of 30-40 and 30-38. And many rip his FG% (which was around the league average), BUT, he had an 18-29 .702 FINALS in '65. Yes, a .702 FG% in the FINALS. And he followed that up the very next season's FINALS, by LEADING Boston in SCORING.

Of course, aside from Chamberlain, Russell has the highest APG seasons of any all-time great center. The Celtic offense RAN THRU Russell after Cousy retired.

Russell played a pivot center type of offense. He could take the ball down low and have the defense come at him and he used good judgement in hitting the open man or just opening up the offense. So he was very active on both sides of the ball. I think he was a smart passer and a good offensive player. Being that he was among the fastest players, had quick feet and was cat quick like Amare, I never understood why he wasn't better offensively. None-the-less, its still hard to argue above him. Jordan is definitely the hardest to be critical of.

[bizil]

I wasn't directing my repkly so much at you, as other's here. I certainly respect your opinions. But even I under-rated Russell's offensive contributions for years.

He was CLEARLY a better offensive player than players like Ben Wallace and Tyson Chandler (FG% not withstanding.)

Now, here again, I wouldn't put Russell on the level of the players you mentioned, either. But then the question becomes...how much of a difference maker was Russell on the defensive end? ThaRegul8r posted an interesting article whch illustrated that Russell's defense was worth every bit as much as MJ's offense. I wish I would have saved that article, but in any case, it was a solid argument.

No question Russ is on a whole other level than Chandler and Wallace. Russell was a very good scorer, while those guys are non existent when it comes to scoring. And if u think about Russell in the total package context (scoring, passing, rebounding, defense, freakish athletic ability, leadership) he's in the top 2-3 centers of all time.

[bizil]

Russell played a pivot center type of offense. He could take the ball down low and have the defense come at him and he used good judgement in hitting the open man or just opening up the offense. So he was very active on both sides of the ball. I think he was a smart passer and a good offensive player. Being that he was among the fastest players, had quick feet and was cat quick like Amare, I never understood why he wasn't better offensively. None-the-less, its still hard to argue above him. Jordan is definitely the hardest to be critical of.

I've always wondered that about Russell too. Russ qualifies as a freakish athlete. Russell was ahead of his time in that sense. As he was then, he athletic ability stands up to the best big men of today. I think his game translates very well to what we see today. He would simply be more of a PF who could defend damn near any position on the court. But u would get WAY more offensive production than guys like Rodman, Ben Wallace, Chandler, etc.

[jlauber]

No question Russ is on a whole other level than Chandler and Wallace. Russell was a very good scorer, while those guys are non existent when it comes to scoring. And if u think about Russell in the total package context (scoring, passing, rebounding, defense, freakish athletic ability, leadership) he's in the top 2-3 centers of all time.

[INDI]

I appreciate everyones comments on the subject. One good reason why I say he is not top five is this.

If you were starting a franchise, any player in the history of the the league, name your top five.