Why is Duncan above Kobe in the all-time list?

[StateOfMind12]

If you want to talk about dominant and spectacular, then you would talk about Hakeem's '95. That was the year that had people talking about Hakeem's place in history, not '94. I was there, watched basketball, listened to every national sports radio show and read every basketball publication. '94's significance is in combination with '95, because in those two years he went through every single one of his contemporary rivals at his position. I rarely see people mention the fact that if Ewing had won, then everyone would be talking about '94 Ewing and '03 Duncan. Hakeem was one of my favorite players to watch, but I'm capable of being objective.

Dream's '95 post-season run was much more dominant and spectacular than his '94 post-season run. However, Dream's overall '94 season was better than Dream's overall '95 season.

Can you name any player other than Dream that won the

MVP
Finals MVP
DPOY
All-NBA First Team
All-NBA Defensive First Team

All in the same season and without another all-star player on their team? Because that was what Dream did in '94.

The reason why '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan are compared is because they won championships without another all-star on their team. It's not that similar outside of that though if you truly think about it.

Dream was not the MVP in '95 because he was injured and Robinson took his place. Dream was actually on the All-NBA Third team in '95. Shaq was on the 2nd team and Robinson was on the 1st team. Hakeem didn't win DPOY that season, Robinson did, and Hakeem actually played with another all-star on that team in Clyde Drexler, at least after the mid-season when they acquired him.

Either way we aren't talking about Dream so I don't know why you're brought it up and decided to cherry pick my post about it especially when this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan.

[Meticode]

There's a couple reasons why mainly I think. One, he's probably the best power forward ever. Two, he won all those championships being the main focal point of the team and the leader...although you could argue the first one when David Robinson was towards the end of his career.

[YAWN]

He's not anymore on most peoples, but Duncan does still has an argument for now.

[madmax]

Because he's better.

this

[ThaRegul8r]

If you want to talk about dominant and spectacular, then you would talk about Hakeem's '95. That was the year that had people talking about Hakeem's place in history, not '94. I was there, watched basketball, listened to every national sports radio show and read every basketball publication. '94's significance is in combination with '95, because in those two years he went through every single one of his contemporary rivals at his position. I rarely see people mention the fact that if Ewing had won, then everyone would be talking about '94 Ewing and '03 Duncan. Hakeem was one of my favorite players to watch, but I'm capable of being objective.

Dream's '95 post-season run was much more dominant and spectacular than his '94 post-season run.

Dominance and spectacularity was the subject.

However, Dream's overall '94 season was better than Dream's overall '95 season.

And again, no one was reassessing Hakeem's place in history in '94. They were in '95. I can post plenty of examples.

Can you name any player other than Dream that won the

MVP
Finals MVP
DPOY
All-NBA First Team
All-NBA Defensive First Team

All in the same season and without another all-star player on their team?

No one else did it because the Defensive Player of the Year award didn't even exist until the 1982-83 season. Had it existed before then, then Hakeem wouldn't have been the only one to accomplish the feat. But I digress.

Because that was what Dream did in '94.

I'm aware of that, because I watched basketball as it happened.

The reason why '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan are compared is because they won championships without another all-star on their team.

I am aware of this.

Either way we aren't talking about Dream so I don't know why you're brought it up and decided to cherry pick my post about it especially when this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan.

Uhh... I dunno, maybe because you brought up Dream's name in the first place?



If "this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan," then Hakeem's name had no business coming up in the first place in any capacity since he is irrelevant to this discussion. I find it odd that the person who brought his name up in the first place would make this statement.

[ThaRegul8r]

As to the question, Duncan was the best player on four NBA championship teams

[StateOfMind12]

If "this thread is about Kobe vs. Duncan," then Hakeem's name had no business coming up in the first place in any capacity since he is irrelevant to this discussion. I find it odd that the person who brought his name up in the first place would make this statement.

Actually I just brought an old quote from another thread about Duncan. Hakeem's name just happened to come up and another poster mentioned it. Either way lets stop talking about Hakeem here and just talk about Kobe and Duncan. I do think Duncan's '03 season was still overrated as I explained in the last page of this thread.

There's a couple reasons why mainly I think. One, he's probably the best power forward ever. Two, he won all those championships being the main focal point of the team and the leader...although you could argue the first one when David Robinson was towards the end of his career.

Being the best power ever should mean anything since Kobe is the 2nd greatest SG of all-time only to be behind Michael Jordan which is nothing to be ashamed of.

I understand your second point though and that is probably why a decent amount of people still believe Duncan is above Kobe in the all-time list. I use to have Duncan above Kobe in my all-time list but I am starting to think that I should change my mind about that.

I understand 81, 62-61, 35.4 are the sexy numbers, but consider this:

the league never changed the rules so that Duncan could flourish.

People were already saying that Kobe was the best player in the game or better than Duncan before the '04-'05 season though when the hand-check was taken away.

[OmniStrife]

It's very close, I think his 3 FMVPS should've been 4 imo, and the fact that he's the GOAT when it comes to PFs are what takes him over Kobe.

[Pointguard]

I can easily come up with an argument that Duncan > Kobe all time.

Duncan's Resume:

-Greatest PF of all time
-Robbed of atleast 2 DPOY which would put him on a Jordan-esque level of awards.
-Won 4 rings as defensive anchor and offensive juggernaut.
-3 Finals MVPs. Kobe has 2.
Just as clutch on offense, more clutch on defense.
-Never played with a top 5 player in his prime.

As it is, both are deservedly in the top 10

Plus the two MVP's to Kobe's one.

And if you switched teams. Duncan's teams win from 99 to 05 without interruption - perhaps a hiccup in there somewhere. They also win in 08 and 09 maybe 2010. Kobe on SA might win one ring but it is doubtful because the Lakers would be dominating with Duncan. Duncan was one of the most amazing winners in the sport.

Did Duncan ever play with a top 10 player???

[Artillery]

I would assume it was because the Lakers had kicked their ass in the past two post-seasons with no problem.

2001: Lakers swept them 4-0
2002: Lakers won 4-1.

Lakers probably would have won that series had Kobe, Fox, George, etc. and all those other key players didn't get hurt. Spurs could have also lost to the Mavericks in the WCF if Dirk didn't get hut and they also could have faced and lost to the Kings in the WCF if Webber didn't get hurt as I stated in the original post.

Awful post. You cherry pick the '03 season for injuries on the Lakers side while ignoring that the second option on the '01 Spurs team(Derek Anderson) was injured in the 2nd round series against the Mavs from a dirty Juwan Howard foul and never returned to form afterwards. Same goes for '02 with Robinson playing injured against the Lakers.

You could throw the injury excuse at just about any championship run, especially Kobe's(Magic's injuries in the 2009 Finals, Celtics with Perkins in 2010, etc) Even attempting to form an argument based on injuries and trying to pass a championship run off as "lucky" is lazy reasoning.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Timmy has always done more with less. Guy just makes his teammates better. It's not an accident that SA is known for it's ability to draft future potential. It ain't front office genius, it's Timmy's ability to command the floor and lift his guys to higher levels.

Kobe on the other-hand has yet to win a ring without the most talented big men in the league playing beside him.

The correct answer is Duncan.

Awful post.

What else is new?

[bdreason]

I have Duncan over Kobe, but it's certainly close. I'm just more impressed with Duncan's 4 rings, and what he meant to those teams. No disrespect to the Black Mamba, but he's never controlled the game like Tim Duncan (or Shaq) did.

[StateOfMind12]

Plus the two MVP's to Kobe's one.

MVPs is an objective award. Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq have combined ad Nash has as many MVPs as Duncan does. Are we really going to compare Nash to those guys? Nash is probably a top 25-30 player of all-time at best.

And if you switched teams. Duncan's teams win from 99 to 05 without interruption - perhaps a hiccup in there somewhere. They also win in 08 and 09 maybe 2010. Kobe on SA might win one ring but it is doubtful because the Lakers would be dominating with Duncan. Duncan was one of the most amazing winners in the sport.

I'm not sure what is the point of discussing the Kobe-Duncan hypothetical swap. You can only base greatness on what did happen, not on what should have happened or what could have happened.

Duncan would not have won in '08, '09, or '10. Duncan stopped being an effective and dominant force after the '07 season (his last championship). He stopped being a superstar after '07, '08 he still had something left in him but not that much. He was just an all-star in '08 and in '09 and '10 he was barely an all-star.

Duncan currently isn't doing much to help his legacy now a days either and hasn't since 2007. Duncan doesn't even play 30+ mpg anymore while Kobe at the end of this season will probably lead the league in scoring (3rd scoring title), be in the All-NBA First team again, and is also going to get another all-star appearance.

Did Duncan ever play with a top 10 player???

I'm not sure why it matters since Kobe won without a top 10 player in '08-'09 and '09-'10. Gasol was never a top 10 player in the league although his best argument would be in '09-'10 but I still don't think he was top 10.

Awful post. You cherry pick the '03 season for injuries on the Lakers side while ignoring that the second option on the '01 Spurs team(Derek Anderson) was injured in the 2nd round series against the Mavs from a dirty Juwan Howard foul and never returned to form afterwards. Same goes for '02 with Robinson playing injured against the Lakers.

You could throw the injury excuse at just about any championship run, especially Kobe's(Magic's injuries in the 2009 Finals, Celtics with Perkins in 2010, etc) Even attempting to form an argument based on injuries and trying to pass a championship run off as "lucky" is lazy reasoning.

Artillery, not going to take too much time responding to you since you are clearly an irrational Kobe hater, I mean I'm talking 32Dayz bad.

However, you did bring up a good point though but I wasn't trying to knock on Duncan's run and say it was fluke or say he shouldn't have won the championship or something like that. I was just trying to say it was not as special and as dominant as most people made out of it. There is also a difference between missing 2-3 key rotation players like the Lakers did in '03 and missing one key rotation player like what you listed. It is one of the few times I'll respond to you though but I just want to let you know for future references that I'm not going to put up with you that much especially when you start to become 32Dayz bad.

[Kingsfans818]

prime garnet >> prime duncan

false

however, I am one to argue that PEAK Garnett >> Peak Duncan

problem is that garnett's peak only seemed to be for that one MVP season where he was completely unbelievable playing the PG for the wolves team when Cassell went down

Duncan however gets the nod because his "prime" was about 6 years where he was extremely consistent

[Artillery]

I understand 81, 62-61, 35.4 are the sexy numbers, but consider this:

35.4 isn't even world shatteringly impressive seeing as Iverson was doing 33 that same year, Lebron at 31, Arenas at 30, and a whole slew of other perimeter players reaching career highs. NBA rules changes FTL

the league never changed the rules so that Duncan could flourish.

League actually made it HARDER for post players - Zone D and the defensive 3 seconds