if the bulls replaced dennis rodman from 06-08 with k-love. do they win 3 straight?

[kennethgriffin]

Also clearly the best player int he game..

that has nothing to do with the mvp award though

atleast thats what they told kobe in 2006

[ShawkFactory]

that has nothing to do with the mvp award though

atleast thats what they told kobe in 2006

Yea but his team won 66 games, including 27 in a row.

Had 7 straight games of 30+ on 60%+.

When comparing Kobe and Lebron, Michael Jordan stated that in terms of dominating the game of basketball its Lebron James. Barkley said he never thought he'd see someone dominate games the way Jordan did until he saw Lebron that season.

Hit game winners out the ass.

Had 120 of the 121 first place votes.

I could keep going.

2013 was about as much of a no-brainer as it gets.

[kennethgriffin]

Yea but his team won 66 games, including 27 in a row.

Had 7 straight games of 30+ on 60%+.

When comparing Kobe and Lebron, Michael Jordan stated that in terms of dominating the game of basketball its Lebron James. Barkley said he never thought he'd see someone dominate games the way Jordan did until he saw Lebron that season.

Hit game winners out the ass.

Had 120 of the 121 first place votes.

I could keep going.

2013 was about as much of a no-brainer as it gets.

so is it about being the best player or having the best team?

cause curry wasnt the best player this season. there was arguably 3-4 guys who are better overall players

[Thorpesaurous]

I don't think so because they just would've given up too much defensively, especially during an era where the rules were such, and the players were there to take advantage, of the sort of post defense he'd be asked to play.

But in general he would've been a killer piece in the triangle of that era. He would've played Center and crushed spreading the weakside of the floor in an era where you couldn't cheat, you had to double all the way. He basically would've been Mecha-Bill-Wennington, which is in no way an insult.

But they still would've had to have found a PF who could help them defensively.

I'm not a fan of those Bull teams, but I do think they're the most interesting case of team construction that I know of.

[3ball]

[COLOR="Red"]in an era where you couldn't cheat, you had to double all the way.
[/COLOR]

Spacing CREATES THE NEED to cheat halfway.

But when you DON'T have the spacing, defenders are in closer proximity - the close proximity allows defenders to cheat halfway just by playing regular man-to-man defense and sagging off their man.

See the GIFs above where playing halfway is already occurring - defenders are in close proximity for easier help defense than today's game.. [COLOR="Navy"]In today's game, defenders must come from a further distance, even if they are playing halfway.[/COLOR]

crushed spreading the weakside of the floor

Unfortunately, Love would NOT have provided weakside spacing for the Bulls because teams didn't DO THAT back then, other than random or one-offs - weakside spacing was never as an ongoing strategy like today.

In today's game, weakside spacing is a staple of every team's floor-spreading strategy, so they can reduce the number of strongside defenders.. But in the Bulls era, teams didn't space the weakside, so Love wouldn't be doing that back then, just like Reggie Miller didn't do that.. Reggie ran off screens - he wasn't stationed behind the 3-point line waiting on a neatly-spaced drive and kick like today.

[ShawkFactory]

so is it about being the best player or having the best team?

cause curry wasnt the best player this season. there was arguably 3-4 guys who are better overall players

Some combination of both. Curry was a top 5 player on a 67 win team. You could have justified giving it to Harden but Curry was certainly deserving as well. Unlike 2013, this last year was not a no-brainer.

In 13 Bran was the easily best player AND had the best team. Thus why he had 120 of 121 possible first place votes. The other one was some guy (probably from NY) who voted for Carmelo.

Really not that hard to figure out. Obviously there are arbitrary aspects of it but generally the MVP has been deserved 90% of the time.

[kennethgriffin]

Some combination of both. Curry was a top 5 player on a 67 win team. You could have justified giving it to Harden but Curry was certainly deserving as well. Unlike 2013, this last year was not a no-brainer.

In 13 Bran was the easily best player AND had the best team. Thus why he had 120 of 121 possible first place votes. The other one was some guy (probably from NY) who voted for Carmelo.

Really not that hard to figure out. Obviously there are arbitrary aspects of it but generally the MVP has been deserved 90% of the time.

then why didnt magic or bird win it in 1988?


the bulls werent a top 5 team. magic and bird were both top 3 players with the best teams record wise from each conference


i think chicago was tied for 7th best record

its obvious the media weighs the "player" aspect and "team" aspect differently depending on who they want to win mvp

[ShawkFactory]

then why didnt magic or bird win it in 1988?


the bulls werent a top 5 team. magic and bird were both top 3 players with the best teams record wise from each conference


i think chicago was tied for 7th best record

its obvious the media weighs the "player" aspect and "team" aspect differently depending on who they want to win mvp

Well Magic won it the year before and his numbers dipped quite a bit in every aspect, so him not winning is reasonable.

Bird definitely could have won it and no one would have batted an eyelash.

Jordan was deserving however. 35/6/5 on 54% and led the league in steals. His unbelievable individual dominance meant more to many voters than the 7 wins the Celtics had over the Bulls. He wasn't dominating on a first-round fodder type of team. And from an individual standpoint it was one of the most dominant seasons of the modern era.

But again, the voting was not even close to unanimous that year. Magic and Bird were well respresented.

[kennethgriffin]

Well Magic won it the year before and his numbers dipped quite a bit in every aspect, so him not winning is reasonable.

Bird definitely could have won it and no one would have batted an eyelash.

Jordan was deserving however. 35/6/5 on 54% and led the league in steals. His unbelievable individual dominance meant more to many voters than the 7 wins the Celtics had over the Bulls. He wasn't dominating on a first-round fodder type of team. And from an individual standpoint it was one of the most dominant seasons of the modern era.

But again, the voting was not even close to unanimous that year. Magic and Bird were well respresented.

then why didnt kobe win it in 2003

duncan won it a year before like magic

duncans numbers dipped a bit from the year before

duncan won the title in 2003 like magic did in 88 but people still say jordan was deserving on a 50 win team cause he averaged better numbers than magic or bird


kobe averaged 30/7/6 ( also with 1st team all defense ) on a 50-32 team same as MJ in 1988

- 9 straight 40 point games
- 12 threes in a game
- 2 months with 40+ppg
- shaq hurt all year, foot problem



is it cause he lost a few games with the 1 other good player on the team injured at the start of the year?

meh...


jordan didnt deserve it man. quit it

[Thorpesaurous]

Spacing CREATES THE NEED to cheat halfway.

But when you DON'T have the spacing, defenders are in closer proximity - the close proximity allows defenders to cheat halfway just by playing regular man-to-man defense and sagging off their man.

See the GIFs above where playing halfway is already occurring - defenders are in close proximity for easier help defense than today's game, [COLOR="Navy"]where defenders must come from a further distance, even if they are playing halfway.[/COLOR]



Unfortunately, Love would NOT have provided weakside spacing for the Bulls because teams didn't DO THAT back then, other than random or one-offs - weakside spacing was never as an ongoing strategy like today.

In today's game, weakside spacing is a staple of every team's floor-spreading strategy, so they can reduce the number of strongside defenders.. But in the Bulls era, teams didn't space the weakside, so Love wouldn't be doing that back then, just like Reggie Miller didn't do that.. Reggie ran off screens - he wasn't stationed behind the 3-point line waiting on a neatly-spaced drive and kick like today.

Teams absolutely did that, and one team in particular, the Bulls did it to the point of obnoxiousness. It is really about 90% the point of the triangle. Your running a post offense with three strong side players. The post sits further from the center line than a typical post arrangement, to allow for cuts on the strong side, and to create more room from the weak side defenders. Especially in the Bull version, the Laker version with Shaq naturally sat deeper. And it's talked about constantly if you ever check out any of Tex Winter's wet dream diatribes about Bill Walton, which are really fun if you dig Walton. And it's the reason why The Bull title teams feature nominal PGs like John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges, and a variety of other guys who are really floor spacing spot shooters, not guys running off of horns like Reggie Miller. And it's the reason Wennington existed on that team even though no one else in the league really had any use for him. And the extra evidence comes from Phil Jaxson's press conferences after losses. I swear the casual NBA fan barely knew Illegal Defense even existed until those Bull teams, because Phil would spend in game griping, and in media griping, with constant bullying about Illegal Defense. It practically ground the game to a halt because up until that time in the early 80s, the Illegal D was treated for extreme cases. Phil had it getting called for a guys foot touching the paint from the weakside like it was an out of bounds situation.

[ShawkFactory]

then why didnt kobe win it in 2003

duncan won it a year before like magic

duncans numbers dipped a bit from the year before

duncan won the title in 2003 like magic did in 88 but people still say jordan was deserving on a 50 win team cause he averaged better numbers than magic or bird


kobe averaged 30/7/6 ( also with 1st team all defense ) on a 50-32 team same as MJ in 1988

- 9 straight 40 point games
- 12 threes in a game
- 2 months with 40+ppg
- shaq hurt all year, foot problem



is it cause he lost a few games with the 1 other good player on the team injured at the start of the year?

meh...


jordan didnt deserve it man. quit it

Well...

A) Kobe's individual dominance was not on the same level as Jordan in 88. Say what you want about a few games where Kobe got hot but Jordan was dominant offensively the entire year AND was the DPOY.

B) Duncan led the Spurs to 60 wins while shouldering a tremendous load. The second best player on the team was 20-year-old Parker. Many thought he also should have been DPOY, as he held down the center on the leagues 3rd best defense.

C) Duncan's scoring went down 2 PPG, literally all of his other numbers were better. Magic went down significantly in scoring (about 5 ppg) and down in every other area as well.

D) Kobe had another guy averaging 28/11 on his team. Jordan's next highest scorer was 13 PPG.

E) Shaq missed the first 11 games...and the Lakers go 3-8 with kobe leading the way. Went 6-10 without Shaq for the season.

F) Kobe did not have 2 40 point months.

EDIT: Also another factor in Jordan winning MVP in 1988 was the fact that the Bulls finished out the season 19-6 with Jordan averaging 37/7/6. That is taken into account as well. Everything is context.

[kennethgriffin]

Well...

A) Kobe's individual dominance was not on the same level as Jordan in 88. Say what you want about a few games where Kobe got hot but Jordan was dominant offensively the entire year AND was the DPOY.

B) Duncan led the Spurs to 60 wins while shouldering a tremendous load. The second best player on the team was 20-year-old Parker. Many thought he also should have been DPOY, as he held down the center on the leagues 3rd best defense.

C) Duncan's scoring went down 2 PPG, literally all of his other numbers were better. Magic went down significantly in scoring (about 5 ppg) and down in every other area as well.

D) Kobe had another guy averaging 28/11 on his team. Jordan's next highest scorer was 13 PPG.

E) Shaq missed the first 11 games...and the Lakers go 3-8 with kobe leading the way. Went 6-10 without Shaq for the season.

F) Kobe did not have 2 40 point months.

a) so it IS mainly individual performance now? what about team?

b) 60 wins? i thought it was about individual performance. now its about team wins again? lakers had 62 wins in 1988

c) now its about points? why did magic ever win a single mvp then ... oh yeah because hes a PG... nash won mvp averaging 15ppg.. know why? he had a ton of assists like magic johnson. .... magic had a ton of help? so did nash and lebron on miami

d) tons of players have won mvp with elite sidekicks. why cant kobe? ( magic won mvp with kareem, worthy etc.. bird with mchale/parish.. jordan with scottie/dennis ... lebron with wade/bosh ) and if you single out duncan as deserving it more cause he had less help. i bet another mvp candidate had less help when curry won, when lebron won, when jordan won in 96 or 98 etc...

e)


my bad.. 1 month of 40ppg

2003 february average = 40.6ppg


and you know whats funny. kobe has more 40 point games in that one season ( 19 ) than duncan has in his career ( 5 )



keep flip flopping criteria to fit your agenda. youre no better than the media



just when you think youve got the answers. i change the questions" - roddy piper

[ShawkFactory]

a) so it IS mainly individual performance now? what about team?

b) 60 wins? i thought it was about individual performance. now its about team wins again? lakers had 62 wins in 1988

c) now its about points? why did magic ever win a single mvp then ... oh yeah because hes a PG... nash won mvp averaging 15ppg.. know why? he had a ton of assists like magic johnson. .... magic had a ton of help? so did nash and lebron on miami

d) tons of players have won mvp with elite sidekicks. why cant kobe? ( magic won mvp with kareem, worthy etc.. bird with mchale/parish.. jordan with scottie/dennis ... lebron with wade/bosh ) and if you single out duncan as deserving it more cause he had less help. i bet another mvp candidate had less help when curry won, when lebron won, when jordan won in 96 or 98 etc...

e)


my bad.. 1 month of 40ppg

2003 february average = 40.6ppg


and you know whats funny. kobe has more 40 point games in that one season ( 19 ) than duncan has in his career ( 5 )



keep flip flopping criteria to fit your agenda. youre no better than the media



just when you think youve got the answers. i change the questions" - roddy piper

I'm not flip-flopping criteria. You're just missing the point...that everything comes into play in a particular season. You're comparing Kobe in 2003 to Jordan in 1988 without a semblance of context. Not that I would expect anything different.

[kennethgriffin]

I'm not flip-flopping criteria. You're just missing the point...that everything comes into play in a particular season. You're comparing Kobe in 2003 to Jordan in 1988 without a semblance of context. Not that I would expect anything different.

oh i got the point

its crystal clear

you say whatever fits your agenda


if i argue individual. you push team. if i push team. you say individual. if i say assists you say points. youl say mj deserved it for having less help in 88 but then defend his mvps with pippen and rodman. you take credit away for one thing then use the same thing as a positive for a different instance. youre a jordan nutthugging flip flopper

jordan was NOT mvp in 1988

or jordan was NOT mvp in 1998

he robbed 2 mvps

you can argue he had too much help in 1996 too

jordan has 3 legit mvps. and if you wanna say those other 3 are legit then you could give kobe a few more under the same bias media bullsh*t


fact is if kobe had the name michael jordan he gets allot more love.


thats all it is.. media love. people vote for who they like. period. why wouldnt they... i'd do the same

everyones a fan if they work in the game writing about basketball. they got there for a reason

it wasnt by being UNBIASED and UNMOVED by the game of basketball..

[ShawkFactory]

oh i got the point

its crystal clear

you say whatever fits your agenda


if i argue individual. you push team. if i push team. you say individual. if i say assists you say points. youl say mj deserved it for having less help in 88 but then defend his mvps with pippen and rodman. you take credit away for one thing then use the same thing as a positive for a different instance. youre a jordan nutthugging flip flopper

jordan was NOT mvp in 1988

or jordan was NOT mvp in 1998

he robbed 2 mvps

you can argue he had too much help in 1996 too

jordan has 3 legit mvps. and if you wanna say those other 3 are legit then you could give kobe a few more under the same bias media bullsh*t


fact is if kobe had the name michael jordan he gets allot more love.


thats all it is.. media love. people vote for who they like. period. why wouldnt they... i'd do the same

everyones a fan if they work in the game writing about basketball. they got there for a reason

it wasnt by being UNBIASED and UNMOVED by the game of basketball..

Because there IS NO SET CRITERIA. Sometimes it's a great player on an even greater team. Sometimes it's an incredible player on a great team. I'm not pushing anything. At the end of each season, there's usually a few guys you can argue. If Bird had won there year no one would say anything. Just like no one says anything that Jordan won. Again, you're ignoring context of anything. Taking in context...Jordan had a stronger case in 88 than Kobe did in 03 or 06. Sorry if that offends you.

If it was all about media love Jordan would have more than 5 MVPs.

Just a butthurt Kobe Stan.