What If... Chris Bosh

[oolalaa]

Chamberlain single-handedly carried what had been a LAST PLACE roster to a game seven, two-point loss, in the '62 ECF's, and against a 60-20 Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers. And in the playoffs that season, Wilt's teammates collectively shot .354. Now you tell me just how in the hell Wilt got that team, that far.

Then, in the '65 ECF's, Chamberlain single-handedly carried a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and 40-40 in the '65 season (Wilt was traded to them mid-way in '65) to a game seven, one point loss, against a PEAK Celtic team during their "Dynasty" that had gone 62-18. And he did so with a 30 ppg, 31 rpg SERIES. And in that game seven, he scored six of Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and a thunderous dunk over Russell with 5 secs left, that brought the Sixers back from a 110-101 deficit to within 110-109. AND, the "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass...which set up the Sixers for a potential game-winning shot under their basket. Of course, "Havlicek stole the ball." Oh, and in that game seven, all Chamberlain did was score 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds.

He also took what very well may have been the worst roster of all-time (the '62-63 Warriors), to a 48-32 record in the '63-64 season, and a trip to the Finals, where his team lost 4-1 to the Celtics, and their EIGHT HOFers. However, two of those losses came within the waning seconds. And, Wilt outscored Russell in that series, 29-11 ppg, and outrebounded him, 27-25 rpg. Chamberlain also shot .517 in that series (which was his LOWEST FG% of any of his SIX Finals...Bird never shot better than .488 in his five, and was down to .419 in one)...and while we don't have Russell's FG%, he shot .356 in his ten post-season games, half of which were played against Wilt.

BTW, in Chamberlain's first six post-seasons, his teammates collectively shot .383, .380, .354, .352, .352 (from a team that had gone 55-25), and an unbelieveable .332. And yet, he took two of them to within an eyelash of beating the Celtics, and another one to a Finals.

Now you tell me just how in the hell Wilt got that team, that far....As well as all his other teams in the early/mid 60s

Because he was the most talented all round player the league has ever known? (Tied with Lebron)



That had little to nothing to do with leadership. He was just that dominant.

[CavaliersFTW]

I will get back to you on this, too, although I'm not even sure where to begin searching for that information (Any ideas? )

I'm going to chime in here: Google News Archives.

And I can tell you right now, I have never found a single game that Wilt reduces notable production going from first half into the (2nd half and or 4th quarter. I don't know why you think he would play like that, maybe your getting brainwashed by Lebron and what the modern definition of "choke" is. At the very worst Wilt seems to have played equally well the entire duration of games and just perhaps didn't amp up like some players can if he was having trouble getting along with coaches/teammates or having trouble finding a serious motive but even that I'm not so sure about, all the papers I've read indicate he does have an extra gear that he used from time to time and video footage only confirms it. I'm editing a 40 point game of his right now and he scored only 14 points and had only 4 rebounds in the first half and his momentum just kept building like a snowball the entire game until he was just miles beyond everyone else in productivity during the closing stages of the game. In the final 5 minutes of the game he dropped in 11 points and blocked several shots. He scored 8 points in the final 3 minutes. I have several other games of Wilt's and in all of them he shows absolutely zero signs of reduced late-game production. In fact, he probably increases production in every single one of them in the 2nd half although I haven't broken them all down statistically yet. If you choose to hunt down game recaps in Google News Archives as I have done for many of his playoff runs, I highly doubt you will find any indications whatsoever that he slumps in closing time during games. He is actually given credit for stifling opponents with extra effort to close important games in the majority of playoff games I've looked at so far.

[oolalaa]

I'm going to chime in here: Google News Archives.

And I can tell you right now, I have never found a single game that Wilt reduces notable production going from first half into the (2nd half and or 4th quarter. I don't know why you think he would play like that, maybe your getting brainwashed by Lebron and what the modern definition of "choke" is. At the very worst Wilt seems to have played equally well the entire duration of games and just perhaps didn't amp up like some players can if he was having trouble getting along with coaches/teammates or having trouble finding a serious motive but even that I'm not so sure about, all the papers I've read indicate he does have an extra gear that he used from time to time and video footage only confirms it. I'm editing a 40 point game of his right now and he scored only 14 points and had only 4 rebounds in the first half and his momentum just kept building like a snowball the entire game until he was just miles beyond everyone else in productivity during the closing stages of the game. In the final 5 minutes of the game he dropped in 11 points and blocked several shots. He scored 8 points in the final 3 minutes. I have several other games of Wilt's and in all of them he shows absolutely zero signs of reduced late-game production. In fact, he probably increases production in every single one of them in the 2nd half although I haven't broken them all down statistically yet. If you choose to hunt down game recaps in Google News Archives as I have done for many of his playoff runs, I highly doubt you will find any indications whatsoever that he slumps in closing time during games. He is actually given credit for stifling opponents with extra effort to close important games in the majority of playoff games I've looked at so far.

I have never, ever called Wilt a choker. He CERTAINLY wasn't a 'winner', but anyone who calls him a loser and a choker is going too far.

Wilt was obsessed with statistics. My point was simply that, having never, ever fouled out of a game during his whole career, it's highly likely that Wilt played sub par/tentative defense in the closing moments of tight games, when he had 4/5 fouls, in order to preserve a record/streak that he was so proud of. That's all. Normal players, who weren't obsessed with not fouling out, wouldn't have that in the back of their mind - they could play more aggressively and fearlessly.

Remember, I'm not saying that Wilt's defense sucked in crunch time when he had a few fouls, but I am saying that it almost certainly dropped off from his peak, earlier in games. I mean, it's logical - HE NEVER FOULED OUT!!!!!


And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

[CavaliersFTW]

I have never, ever called Wilt a choker. He CERTAINLY wasn't a 'winner', but anyone who calls him a loser and a choker is going too far.

Wilt was obsessed with statistics. My point was simply that, having never, ever fouled out of a game during his whole career, it's highly likely that Wilt played sub par/tentative defense in the closing moments of tight games, when he had 4/5 fouls, in order to preserve a record/streak that he was so proud of. That's all. Normal players, who weren't obsessed with not fouling out, wouldn't have that in the back of their mind - they could play more aggressively and fearlessly.

Remember, I'm not saying that Wilt's defense sucked in crunch time when he had a few fouls, but I am saying that it almost certainly dropped off from his peak, earlier in games. I mean, it's logical - HE NEVER FOULED OUT!!!!!


And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaXHYlPECcc
Rapidly picks up fouls. Does not deviate defensive presence.

Again, Google News Archives is where you can look if your convinced he tapers his defense and need to find evidence to back it up but I have never found such information. Your most likely only to find counter intuitive information that suggests he amps up his defense late in games especially, when he was an LA Laker in spite of his # of fouls. Lebron has only fouled out 4 times in his entire career, yet plays stellar defense. Wilt is physically his center equivalent. He def had a #'s obsession that may or may not have gotten in the way of some of his W's and L's but if we are strictly speaking fear of fouling out I'm just going to say I haven't found any evidence to indicate he was worried about fouling out in favor of winning a game (at least playoff games, which is what I generally look up). I could maybe buy that he let a few defensive opportunities slide in the regular season but even that would only ever be based on assumption until evidence was provided.

[CavaliersFTW]

And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

I always give a nice 2-3 day span to allot for the recap of a game to circulate. Usually there's a 1 day delay, so for example:

Basketballreference.com boxscore of G3, 1972 April 14th Bucks vs LA


A Google News Archives Hit, printed on April 15th that recaps the game. I searched for Wilt Chamberlain between specified dates of 4/14/72 and 4/16/72. You can also just search for the team he played on.

[oolalaa]

I always give a nice 2-3 day span to allot for the recap of a game to circulate. Usually there's a 1 day delay

Thanks a lot, I'll give it a go

[oolalaa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaXHYlPECcc
Rapidly picks up fouls. Does not deviate defensive presence.

Again, Google News Archives is where you can look if your convinced he tapers his defense and need to find evidence to back it up but I have never found such information. Your most likely only to find counter intuitive information that suggests he amps up his defense late in games especially, when he was an LA Laker in spite of his # of fouls. Lebron has only fouled out 4 times in his entire career, yet plays stellar defense. Wilt is physically his center equivalent. He def had a #'s obsession that may or may not have gotten in the way of some of his W's and L's but if we are strictly speaking fear of fouling out I'm just going to say I haven't found any evidence to indicate he was worried about fouling out in favor of winning a game (at least playoff games, which is what I generally look up). I could maybe buy that he let a few defensive opportunities slide in the regular season but even that would only ever be based on assumption until evidence was provided.

That's fine, I'm all for evidence, but it defies logic, is all

[jlauber]

OVERALL, Chamberlain is arguably the GREATEST "Big Game" player in NBA HISTORY. Only MJ has a case over him, and at that it would be very close. You find SEVERAL poor post-seasons and flop-jobs by Bird, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, even Russell (whom Chamberlain routinely shelled), and even WEST, who was awful in the post-season in which he finally won a ring (and was just as bad the next season, too.) Yet, Wilt either outplayed, or downright dominated his opposing centers in all 29 of his post-season series. The ONLY questionable one would have been that disastrous '69 season, when Chamberlain's COACH completely blew the entire series. And even then, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in that series,...particularly in game five, and yes, even in game seven (BTW, Russell was nowhere to be found in the 4th quarter of that seventh game.)

I have already shredded Bird's "clutch" myth into the ground here. The Bird-lovers flat out excuse Bird taking SEVEN teams, with HCA edge, down in flames, and playing poorly in SEVERAL of them. Or that he was among the worst shooters among the "greats" in his NBA Finals (and in an era of the HIGHEST FG% seasons in NBA History.)

Kareem? Where to begin. In his rookie season, in the clinching game five loss against the Knicks (132-96 BTW), Reed easily outplayed him.

He did manage to win a ring in '71, but it was probably the easiest road to a title in NBA history. His 66-16 Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in round one. In round two, the only team that could have given his Bucks a run, the Lakers, were without BOTH West and Baylor. Even then, by most accounts, a Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, outplayed him (nearly matching his ppg, outrebounding, and outshooting him. And in the clinching loss, Wilt horribly outplayed Kareem.) Then Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

In the '72 post-season, Kareem was outscored and outshot by Nate Thurmond (and Kareem, who averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, averaged 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting against Nate.) Still, his teammates carried the Bucks past that pesky Warrior team. Then, in the WCF's, Chamberlain held Kareem to .457 shooting, and even more remarkably, in the last FOUR games of that series (three of them Laker wins) Kareem shot a staggering .414 from the field. AND, in the clinching game six loss, Chamberlain just ABUSED Kareem in the 4th quarter, in leading LA to a come-from-behind win. BTW, as a sidenote, those that rip Wilt's numbers based on MPG, had better take a look at that 4th quarter. Kareem LED the NBA that season in MPG, BUT, he was completely worn out by a 35 year old Wilt in that last period.

In the first round of the '73 playoffs, Kareem took his 60-22 Bucks team down in flames (in a series in which Oscar was brilliant BTW) losing to a 47-35 Warrior team. For the series, Kareem shot .428 against Thurmond. And that was probably about what he shot against Nate in their 43 career H2H starts, too.

In the '74 Finals, Kareem, who had played exceptionally well in the first six games, was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens (particularly in the 4th period, when Cowens had five fouls), and his Bucks were blownout on their home floor.

In the '75 season, Oscar retired before the start of the season...and guess what? The Bucks fell to 38-44 and didn't make the playoffs. In fact, Milwaukee tired of Kareem, and traded him off in the off-season to the Lakers. BTW, Rick Barry, with rookie Jamaal Wilkes, and cast of no-names, took his 48-34 team to a sweeping title. Keep that mind.

Kareem went to the Lakers, an average roster at best, in the 75-76 season. Now, think about this. In Kareem's 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, and averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting...on a team that went 63-19, and had a differential of +11.1 ppg.

How about that '76 season, when it was obvious that the Lakers needed him to step up? He SHRUNK DRAMATICALLY...playing 41.2 mpg, scoring 27.7 ppg, and shooting .529 from the floor. Needless to say, his Lakers went 40-42 and didn't make the playoffs.

In the '77 season, Kareem's Lakers had the best record in the league. Kareem was outstanding in the first round of the playoffs, but against the weak Warrior centers. He put up huge numbers, but it still took seven games to dispatch a much weaker Warrior team. THEN, in the WCF's, and against a 49-33 Blazer team, Kareem had one dominating game, and was outplayed in the other three by Walton, particularly in the 4th quarters. The result? Kareem's 53-29 Lakers were SWEPT.

The Lakers BEEFED up their roster in '78 season. Now with Jamaal Wilkes, who was coming into his prime, Lou Hudson, who was still a dangerous offensive player, Norm Nixon, and the unstoppable Adrian Dantley, ....they could only go 45-37, and were buried in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team with only one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) Remember Barry taking his 48-34 Warrior team, along with Wilkes, to a title in '75 (and sweeping a Bullets team with Hayes, Unseld, Grevey and Chenier)? Kareem with a more prime Wilkes, and much more overall talent, couldn't beat a MUCH weaker Sonics team. Incidently, a 44-38 Bullets team won the title that year.

Ok, certainly that loaded Laker roster would dominate in '79, right? Nope, they went 47-35, and were dumped by that same Sonics team (50-32) in the second round of the playoffs, 4-1.

So, in the first half of his career, a PRIME Kareem, playing in the weakest era of champions in NBA history, won ONE ring. And, he lost with teams that went 56-26, 59-23, 60-22, and 63-19 (as well as with a team that had the best record in the league in '77.)

Then Kareem caught the break of a lifetime. MAGIC arrived. The result? An immediate 60-22 record, a wipeout of those pesky Sonics in the playoffs, and a 4-2 romp over Philly in the Finals. Kareem played brilliantly in the Finals, too...EXCEPT, he couldn't go in the road game in game six. So, as always, Magic stepped up his game, and had one of the greatest game's in Finals history (scoring 42 points, on 14-23 shooting, 14-14 FTs, 7 assists, and dominating the glass with 15 rebounds.)

In the 80-81 post-season, Kareem went up against Moses and his 40-42 Rockets. And, as always, Moses just pounded Kareem. BTW, Kareem shot .462 in that Finals...in yet ANOTHER post-season in which he failed to even shoot the league average. And, it was Moses going to the Finals.

In the 81-82 post-season, MAGIC CARRIED the Lakers, with a near TRIPLE-DOUBLE post-season, and easily won his second FMVP. Even Bob McAdoo, in considerably less minutes, matched Kareem's output in that post-season and Finals. BTW, Magic would outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting...and would continue to do so the next SEVEN seasons, as well. THAT tells you who the true LEADER of the 80's Lakers really was.

In the 82-83 Finals, albeit with even Magic playing poorly (and without an injured Worthy), the Sixers, behind Moses just MURDERING Kareem, SWEPT the Lakers. Moses easily outscored him, and CRUSHED him on the glass. BTW, in their seven H2H post-season games, Moses went 6-1 against Kareem, and just wiped the floor with him.

In the '84 Finals, while Johnson, with an 18 ppg, 8 rpg, 13 apg, .560 Finals was labeled "Tragic", Kareem once again shot below the league average in the Finals, only shooting .481. In the pivotal game five, Kareem goes 7-25.

Kareem finally had a great Finals in '85, and deservedly won the FMVP...BUT, the Lakers REAL post-season MVP was Magic, who led that Laker team to a lightning fast 126 ppg in the playoffs. He was now CLEARLY the man. And even Worthy was just as valuable now as Kareem (with an unbelievable and under-rated Finals.)

The '86 season was interesting. Kareem went H2H with Hakeem in five games, and averaged 33 ppg on .634 shooting (in fact, in their first ten straight H2H games, Kareem averaged 32 ppg on .630 shooting against Hakeem...including games of 40, 43, and 46.) BUT, in the WCF's, the Rockets moved Sampson on Kareem, and he slid to a 27 ppg .496 series. And the Lakers were stunned by the Rockets.

In '87, the vaunted Lakers go 65-17, and just annihilate the NBA. Worthy and Magic are now the two best players. In fact, while Kareem was still a good offensive player, he could no longer rebound for his life, nor play any defense. IMHO, the Lakers would have won a title without him.

And that would CLEARLY come to light the very next season ('88). Kareem is now around LA's FIFTH best player. And, he is AWFUL in the post-season. And even WORSE in the Finals (13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 shooting...with probably the WORST game seven ever played by a "great.") The Lakers win a title DESPITE him.

In Kareem's LAST season ('89), Magic takes LA into the Finals with an 11-0 record. However, he is injured mid-way thru game two, and is done. The result? Kareem passively watches while his Lakers are SWEPT.

Then, think about this. In Kareem's LAST season, the Lakers went 57-25. How about AFTER he retired? LA goes 63-19, which is their SECOND best record of the decade. And in the following season, Magic takes an injured and over-the-hill Laker team to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals.

Magic "retired" after that season...and the Lakers immediately dropped to 43-39. Then, the next year they slide to 39-43.

Kind of puts the Kareem-Magic 80's into a better perspective.

In any case, Kareem had MANY FLOP JOBS in his career.

[jlauber]

I have never, ever called Wilt a choker. He CERTAINLY wasn't a 'winner', but anyone who calls him a loser and a choker is going too far.

Wilt was obsessed with statistics. My point was simply that, having never, ever fouled out of a game during his whole career, it's highly likely that Wilt played sub par/tentative defense in the closing moments of tight games, when he had 4/5 fouls, in order to preserve a record/streak that he was so proud of. That's all. Normal players, who weren't obsessed with not fouling out, wouldn't have that in the back of their mind - they could play more aggressively and fearlessly.

Remember, I'm not saying that Wilt's defense sucked in crunch time when he had a few fouls, but I am saying that it almost certainly dropped off from his peak, earlier in games. I mean, it's logical - HE NEVER FOULED OUT!!!!!


And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

First of all, Chamberlain was a GREAT "winner." In his 14 seasons in the NBA he went to TWELVE Conference Finals (Bird went to eight in his 13 seasons.) He played on SIX Division winners. He played on SIX Conference winners. He went to SIX Finals. He played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games (Russell played on three BTW.) He anchored two teams that went 68-13 and 69-13. Think about that...only MJ can make a claim that he played on better teams. Not Bird, not Kareem, not Shaq, not Kobe, not Duncan, not Russell, and certainly not Hakeem (whose BEST record was only 58-24.) And Chamberlain anchored two dominating champions.

Was Wilt "obsessed with stats?" You better ask his COACH's. In his 50 ppg season, his COACH asked Wilt to shoot. Why? Because he took a look at that pathetic and aged roster, and realized that the ONLY hope they had was for Wilt to score.

And how come Wilt the "stats-obsessed" Wilt dramatically cut back his shooting when his COACH, Alex Hannum, asked him to before the start of the 66-67 season? Did Jordan ever cut back his shooting? Kobe?

And Wilt was ripped by the moronic Bill Simmons for setting out to lead the NBA in assists in the '68 season....which he did. What a "selfish" role to play. Oh, and BTW, the Sixers RAN AWAY with the BEST RECORD in the league, too. Obviously Wilt's "selfishness" really hurt that team.

As for Van Breda Kolf in '69, he had Chamberlain, the greatest LOW-POST center in NBA history (and this is not even close to debatable), with 15 ft range...playing a HIGH post and setting screens. He even BENCHED Wilt at times during the season. Wilt certainly didn't like it, but he did it. He watched as Elgin Baylor completely puked all over himself in the post-season, too. Of course, Van Breda Kolf was immediately fired after that Finals...which not only cost Wilt a ring, but Van Breda Kolf's career, too.

And by Wilt's last two seasons, he was shooting about 9 FGAs per game, and STILL hanging 30+ point games when asked.

As for Wilt having never fouled out of an NBA game...think about this: Wilt AVERAGED 2.0 PF per game in his NBA career (on 45.8 mpg.) THEN, in the post-season, Chamberlain AVERAGED 2.5 PF per game (in an incredible 47.2 mpg.) Just how often was Wilt even remotely in foul trouble?

But, once again, I have pointed out games in which he played BRILLIANTLY while in foul trouble. And his defense was second only to Russell's in NBA history (again, this is not even debatable.) An OLD Chamberlain, on a surgically repaired knee, held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting in their 28 H2H games (Kareem shot .559 in his career), and in their LAST TEN H2H's, Wilt held Kareem to .434 shooting. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain, at his peak athleticism in the mid-60's, would have leveled Kareem with.