Mindboggling Anti-vaxxers case

[Loco 50]

The idea behind the flu shot is that the overlap between strains is enough that even if it doesn't keep you from catching the flu, it will be a less severe form.

This can mean the difference between life and death in the senior citizen population, which is why it's mandatory you get one if you work with seniors.

[bladefd]

Me and my family are basically fully vaccinated (aside from non essential stuff like HPV and flu shots), but I am vehemently opposed to any suggestion of "forced" vaccinations

Any kind of mandatory medical treatment violates "informed consent" (a concept which is kind of like medical version of free speech). The basic idea is that no medical treatment should ever be performed without the patient understanding and consenting to the treatment. The main reason you have to sign a million different forms in order to get any kind of major medical treatment in the US is because of this concept of informed consent.

What reason is there to not get vaccinated against say measles or polio? Ignorance or religious grounds or something idiotic like "BC VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM!!" is not good enough. Tons of studies have been done over whether vaccines cause autism, and nobody has ever proven that. The one study anti-vaxxers like Jenny McCartney point to was by a doctor in 90s who admitted to fraud & lost his license - he manufactured faulty numbers and results..

By not getting vaccinated against certain things like polio or measles, it can lead to hell for you and everyone else around you. Polio is not contagious but expensive and extremely debilitating. Measles is one of the most contagious things known and extremely deadly (excluding biological weapons from here because those are man-made). What good reason is there to not be vaccinated against that? We eradicated measles, mumps, polio, etc thanks to vaccines..

We have laws for helmets and seat-belts. Try using same argument here that using a helmet on a bike should be by consent. The cop will laugh in your face, and judge will laugh you out of the court-room & make you pay the ticket or strike you with contempt of the law.

[Nanners]

Problem with measels is that it's harmful to society. Even if you seperate those unvaccinated people there's a chance the measels evolve and a resistent strain is created

I don't care for tetanus or stuff like that, but measels should be mandatory.

Lots of things are harmful to society. Men who were raised in a single parent household are 10x more likely to become rapists and 20x more likely to be murderers, and over 80% of all prison inmates were raised in single families. Does that mean we should start forcing single mothers to get abortions when pregnant and put their children up for adoption? Preventing single mothers from having children would certainly make life safer for the rest of society.

Anyway measles isnt really that harmful, check out this little video showing how americans viewed measles back in the 60s before the vaccine was invented https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDb0...w&index=4&t=7s

[Nanners]

What reason is there to not get vaccinated against say measles or polio? Ignorance or religious grounds or something idiotic like "BC VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM!!" is not good enough. Tons of studies have been done over whether vaccines cause autism, and nobody has ever proven that. The one study anti-vaxxers like Jenny McCartney point to was by a doctor in 90s who admitted to fraud & lost his license - he manufactured faulty numbers and results..

What reason is there to not get vaccinated? How about having free will?

I think you need to re-read my post because most of the idiocy in your post is completely irrelevant. Where did I say anything about autism or medical conspiracies? I said that I believe in the concept of informed consent, thats all.

By not getting vaccinated against certain things like polio or measles, it can lead to hell for you and everyone else around you. Polio is not contagious but expensive and extremely debilitating. Measles is one of the most contagious things known and extremely deadly (excluding biological weapons from here because those are man-made). What good reason is there to not be vaccinated against that? We eradicated measles, mumps, polio, etc thanks to vaccines..

Are you illiterate or just a complete fu[COLOR="Black"]cki[/COLOR]ng idiot? Again, I didnt say a single word about reasoning for not getting vaccinated, I simply said that I think people should have the right to make that decision for themselves.

We have laws for helmets and seat-belts. Try using same argument here that using a helmet on a bike should be by consent. The cop will laugh in your face, and judge will laugh you out of the court-room & make you pay the ticket or strike you with contempt of the law.

Yeah, we do have laws for helmets and seat-belts, and we dont have laws that mandate any kind of medical treatments whatsoever... for good reason.

[Loco 50]

Lots of things are harmful to society. Men who were raised in a single parent household are 10x more likely to become rapists and 20x more likely to be murderers, and over 80% of all prison inmates were raised in single families. Does that mean we should start forcing single mothers to get abortions when pregnant and put their children up for adoption? Preventing single mothers from having children would certainly make life safer for the rest of society.

Anyway measles isnt really that harmful, check out this little video showing how americans viewed measles back in the 60s before the vaccine was invented https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDb0...w&index=4&t=7s

God bless.

Get your kids vaccinated folks.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001419.htm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3706451/

Understand that measles is as contagious as the common cold, meaning if someone has it, the likelihood of you or your kid getting it is extremely high because it's transmission is through the air.

If your kid catches measles he's got a 1 in 600 to 1 in 1200 chance of developing encephalitis. You don't survive encephalitis, at least not intact.

[Loco 50]

The HPV vaccine is also critical in girls, in that 80 percent of sexually active people have HPV.

No big deal right, it's just warts? Wrong HPV leads to cervical cancer, a leading killer of women until we figured out that regular screening could save lives. If those women aren't checked regularly though at least the vaccine will prevent the cancer from being able to develop in the first place.

I don't know what Nanners is on about.

[Nanners]

I don't know what Nanners is on about.

Are you an illiterate dumbshit too Loco? I thought I made it crystal clear that I am "on about" these little things called informed consent and free will.

HPV is irrelevant to me. I am not infected, I only sleep with one person, and she is not infected either.

[Loco 50]

Are you an illiterate dumbshit too Loco? I thought I made it crystal clear that I am "on about" these little things called informed consent and free will.

HPV is irrelevant to me. I am not infected, I only sleep with one person, and she is not infected either.

Why are you so belligerent? It's a f'n disease around here.

That's fine if HPV is irrelevant to you. It's not to your daughter, if you've got one.

Explain informed consent to the parent of a kid that was vaccinated that is now dying of encephalitis because some dipshit parent's "freedom of will" was protected by Nanners. FOH.

Informed consent is critical. This is a big "duh" point to anyone in the field. But when you present a danger to others the need for your consent gets mitigated.

Alcoholics get their keys taken away. Mentally unstable people get their freedom taken away. Etc Etc.

[bladefd]

What reason is there to not get vaccinated? How about having free will?

I think you need to re-read my post because most of the idiocy in your post is completely irrelevant. Where did I say anything about autism or medical conspiracies? I said that I believe in the concept of informed consent, thats all.

Yeah, you have free will to jump off a building, but you don't do it. Why? Because you know what's going to happen when you hit the ground.

Free will is not good enough reason for something as crucial and lifesaving as vaccines. Mumps is scary. Measles is scary. Polio is scary. Those are legit threats, especially to kids who lack body immunity, that I don't think we as society should overlook in name of informed consent.

I would be okay with going vaccine-by-vaccine as society (perhaps a medical committee panel of doctors), determining which vaccine should be required by law and which shouldn't, but I would not be okay with a parent use a blanket statement like "all vaccines are bad because they cause autism!"

Are you illiterate or just a complete fu[COLOR="Black"]cki[/COLOR]ng idiot? Again, I didnt say a single word about reasoning for not getting vaccinated, I simply said that I think people should have the right to make that decision for themselves.

I didn't say those were your reasons. You already said you and your family is vaccinated and so I know you don't believe nonsense like "vaccines cause autism."

But your argument of informed consent lays the groundwork for people to use those idiotic reasons if they so wish just because they feel like it when all scientific studies, statistics and research shows something very different. Measles has begun to come back after being eradicated for decades because of ignorance/idiocy by parents. That should worry folks.

Yeah, we do have laws for helmets and seat-belts, and we dont have laws that mandate any kind of medical treatments whatsoever... for good reason.

What good reason is there when it concerns something as contagious and deadly as measles? Are you really okay with some anti-vaxxer yelling in your face "FREE WILL, B!TCH!"

I'm still waiting for a sensible reason to not get something like measles vaccine. "Because I feel like it!" is not a legit argument.

[Nanners]

Why are you so belligerent? It's a f'n disease around here.

Its "belligerent" to be annoyed by stupid jabronies who quote your post and then argue with nonsense straw men?

Explain informed consent to the parent of a kid that was vaccinated that is now dying of encephalitis because some dipshit parent's "freedom of speech" was protected by Nanners. FOH

I will happily explain the concept of informed consent to the parent of a kid who was the 1 in 1000 to die from measles... I will also repeatedly explain it to idiots like you on this message board.

[Loco 50]

Its "belligerent" to be annoyed by stupid jabronies who quote your post and then argue with nonsense straw men?




I will happily explain the concept of informed consent to the parent of a kid who was the 1 in 1000 to die from measles... I will also repeatedly explain it to idiots like you on this message board.

Read the edit, please. What straw man? Encephalitis?

That's a bummer that you have to explain your misinformation to idiots on a message board. I have to undo your horseshit with patients.

[Nanners]

Yeah, you have free will to jump off a building, but you don't do it. Why? Because you know what's going to happen when you hit the ground.

Free will is not good enough reason for something as crucial and lifesaving as vaccines. Mumps is scary. Measles is scary. Polio is scary. Those are legit threats, especially to kids who lack body immunity, that I don't think we as society should overlook in name of informed consent.

I would be okay with going vaccine-by-vaccine as society (perhaps a medical committee panel of doctors), determining which vaccine should be required by law and which shouldn't, but I would not be okay with a parent use a blanket statement like "all vaccines are bad because they cause autism!"

The point of free will isnt jumping off the building, its having the choice to jump if you really want to.

I agree that a lot of diseases are scary, like I said I am basically fully vaccinated... the difference between you and me is that I dont think that anyone (myself included) should have the right to force others to take a given vaccine or medical treatment.

I didn't say those were your reasons. You already said you and your family is vaccinated and so I know you don't believe nonsense like "vaccines cause autism."

Well forgive me for being confused by the fact that you quoted my post and then repeatedly asked "what is the reason for not getting vaccinated".

But your argument of informed consent lays the groundwork for people to use those idiotic reasons if they so wish just because they feel like it when all scientific studies, statistics and research shows something very different. Measles has begun to come back after being eradicated for decades because of ignorance/idiocy by parents. That should worry folks.

It is worrying that more and more parents are anti-vaccine, but I definitely dont think things have gotten to the point that we should be abandoning our rights. Gun violence is worrying (it kills a ****ton more people than measles), yet I dont think we should abolish the second amendment.

What good reason is there when it concerns something as contagious and deadly as measles? Are you really okay with some anti-vaxxer yelling in your face "FREE WILL, B!TCH!"

I'm still waiting for a sensible reason to not get something like measles vaccine. "Because I feel like it!" is not a legit argument.

Yes I am most definitely okay with anti-vaxxers yelling in my face and having free will. I think every human should have free will, especially when it comes to medicine.

[Nanners]

Read the edit, please. What straw man? Encephalitis?

That's a bummer that you have to explain your misinformation to idiots on a message board. I have to undo your horseshit with patients.

So when you say you have to undo my horseshit, you mean you have to convince your patients that they dont have the right to chose their own medical treatment? that they dont have sovereignty over what goes on in their own body?

[Loco 50]

Yes I am most definitely okay with anti-vaxxers yelling in my face and having free will. I think every human should have free will, especially when it comes to medicine.

Alright, taking a breath here. Apologies, interacting with Okra in another thread put me in a foul mood and it bled over to you.

Yes, free will/informed consent are incredibly important to protect in our patients.

However, as I mentioned before sometimes the patient becomes a danger to themselves or others, other measures have to be taken.

I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of vaccination if your stance remains the same despite the consequences.

Do I like the thought of forcefully vaccinating someone? No. Would I actually do it? No. Would I apply an awful lot of pressure if I think I can budge them? Yes.

[Loco 50]

So when you say you have to undo my horseshit, you mean you have to convince your patients that they dont have the right to chose their own medical treatment? that they dont have sovereignty over what goes on in their own body?

100% no.

There are ways of convincing.