GOAT's SPHA Finalists - Top 5 Players by Year (1980-1999)

[G.O.A.T]

Very nice responses Nugz

I only want to comment immediately on my criteria, but rest assured that much of your analysis as well as Shaqattack's have, as I'd hoped, forced me to reconsider or at the least reevaluate my opinions on a number of seasons.

I think your misunderstanding the point of my criteria. I am NOT trying to list the five best players from each season. I am trying to list the guys who had the five most important seasons. The five seasons I would be most proud of as that player or a fan of him. Now talent is obviously very important in making this decision, but more than just that goes into it.

Was Shaq a better player than Michael Jordan in 1998? probably.
Did he have a larger overall impact from game to game? I'd say yes.
Would I rather emerge as the future of the NBA in LA, average 28-11-3-3 shooting 60% fro the field or would I rather win the NBA finals on the last shot I ever take (should have been) securing my place as the greatest player of all-time during a season in which I won my fifth MVP? I bet you can guess.

And lets remember how Shaq's season ended. All of his major flaws were exposed and his team was annihilated by the aging Utah Jazz. In game one Shaq was 6-16 from the field while being guarded by Greg Ostertag. In game two the Diesel had just seven rebounds and was not able to score down the stretch as Utah took the lead in the fourth and won. In game three Shaq was awesome, but his 5-13 ft performance made him a non-factor late and Utah again dominated the fourth quarter for a win. Game four completed the sweep, which at this point of Shaq's career was a pretty regular thing. O'Neal's teams were swept out of the '94, '95, '96, '98 and '99 playoffs.

To tell someone Shaq was the leagues most significant player in 1998 only serves to under-emphasize the growth of Shaq under Phil Jackson that made him the most dominant force of the second 30 years of NBA history.

If I were to just list the top five impact players, Payton would never touch these lists, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Robinson, Ewing...hard to keep them out most years they are healthy. This is more about understanding the entire season through the respective stories of each elite player.

Finally to elaborate on the Drexler 2nd in 1992. You see he is not there in the top five in 1990 or 1995 etc. So it's not as simple as; "putting emphasis on team success". It's more than that. I was in the prime of my basketball watching days in 1992. Too young to drink at the bars but old enough to have a job and a car. When I think of that season I remember guys like Barkley and Olajuwon struggling to stay happy with their teams. I remember the NBA adjusting to life without Magic, I remember people wondering if Jordan would stay unselfish or now that he had a title try to score even more points. Mostly I remember the story of Drexler's emergence into super-stardom. As it turned out, he wasn't an elite superstar, but at that time most of the NBA experts thought that's where he was headed. Most of the fans, me included, agreed. He finished second in the MVP to Jordan, and took his team to the finals where they lost to Jordan's Bulls. Knowing what happened with Portland from 1992-93 on, I can see why someone now would say; "Drexler at #2 is way too high: but in July of 1992, that seemed about right.

[G.O.A.T]

Wanted to comment on this too.

Personally, the better player to me is the one who makes the biggest impact and contributes the most to his team's success regardless of how far they go.

How is it possible to ignore how far the team goes when measuring the biggest impact on their success is your main criteria?

To me, and I'm not accusing you of this, that is a good way to allow a lot of subjective thinking into an evaluation. It opens the door for "weak supporting cast", "team x is loaded" and other oversimplified arguments. If anything can be learned from recent NBA seasons it's that the talent level of the teams is so close across the board (once you get into the playoffs) that a lot of times it's the intangibles more than raw talent that win out.

Olajuwon probably had more impact on games from 1985-1993 than Michael Jordan, but only a fool would say he was a better player and that fool's even more foolish cousin would say he was a more significant player.

[Bigsmoke]

DRob and Shaq pretty easily above Ewing imo. Pippen at #5 or bumped to #6 by Malone.

in 1993?

He didnt even play that well that season

He had back issues i think

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, I wasn't sure what you were going by, but when I saw Jordan ahead of Magic in '89, I thought it was more best player than anything at first, but it will be easier to discuss now that you'd made your criteria more clear.

As far as 1981, I can't put Kareem first, though everything you say about that season is true, Kareem still got outplayed (slightly) by Malone during the series and the Lakers collapse based on Magic's brooding suggests how important he had become to the team and how little leadership Kareem brought to the table. So while I too think Kareem was, for at least the 11th straight year, the NBA's greatest talent, he did not have the best season by any means.

Well, I think it was going to be tough to win that series with Magic playing as poorly as he did. Outside of who was the best player, I did think that Kareem's play when Magic was out was very impressive and a case for him having an MVP-caliber season. The Lakers went 28-17 and Kareem averaged 29 ppg in those games.

Moses did have the better series vs Kareem as you said, though I did find it impressive that Kareem ended up with more rebounds than Moses in the series. But just to avoid any misconceptions, based on game 2, which I've seen in it's entirety as well as parts of game 1, Billy Paultz was usually guarding Kareem and Jim Chones was usually guarding Moses.

By 1982 it was more Magic's team than Kareem and while Kareem was better, Magic was more important. I respect your perspective on this but the all-NBA and MVP voters, the Lakers owner and fans, my gut, the books I've read on the subject, the historical verdict all favor Magic. From 1982 on, Magic was more important and had more important seasons than Kareem every year.

There was somewhat of a transition in 1982 when Paul Westhead got fired, but hearing both Pat Riley and Magic talk about the transition in '86-'87, it seemed like it was Kareem's team until then.

I consider Kareem not only the better player at this time, but more important because I think if you take Magic off, you still have a fairly complete team with Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper and Jamaal Wilkes on the perimeter. But if you take Kareem off, you have a big problem finding a half court scorer, post player and shot blocker.

If we are asking which player was more talented and if you gave them each their own teams which one would produce more measurable wins, it's probably Kareem through 1984 or 1985, but based on what happen on and off the court and considering all the intangibles, Magic is the clear choice for me.

Well, intangibles and off the court things don't favor Magic, imo in '82 at least. He got Paul Westhead fired and to make matters worse, it was during a winning streak

Thoughts on Barkley vs. Nique in '86? I have been tempted to move McHale up one spot. The Hawks and Celtics meet in the playoffs that year and Nique was pretty shaky despite a regular season where I believe he finished second to Bird in the MVP race.

Barkley played great when Moses went down, but he was too raw for me to put him over Nique in '86. He was more of an all around player, but still learning the game in just his second year. Nique could be a pretty wild player as well with some of the shots he attempted, but I have to go with him.

McHale's defense on Nique that series rather than just Nique struggling is a reason why I'd be tempted to put him over Nique, it showed a part of McHale's game that Nique certainly didn't have. On the other end of the court, Bird embarrassed Nique that series. Bird embarrassed a lot of players, but Nique was a notoriously poor defender and Larry made him look stupid with some of his fakes.

As far as 88-90, the big difference we seem to have is on Isiah. To me he meant too much to too important a team not to find his way into the conversation. Remember that during the Conference Finals and NBA finals he had games where he outplayed MJ and Magic. Despite Zeke posting better numbers in previous years the consensus among his teammates, the Detroit media at the time, Chuck Daly and Isiah himself is that he was a much better player from '88-'90 than in his younger more statistically impressive days.

Well, I haven't ever read much into a statistical decline between Isiah in the mid 80's and '88-'90. I always figured it had more to do with the team. Detroit in the mid 80's was one of the run and gun teams and not nearly as talented as their championship years. By the late 80's and '90, Detroit slowed the game down more than any other team in the league and was playing more of a defensive-minded late 90's/early 00's style than an extreme run and gun mid 80's style which in itself can dramatically alter numbers.

Also, Detroit's team had so many scoring options and went with the hot hand whether it was Isiah or Dumars(and those 2 alternating backcourt roles(, Aguirre or Edwards posting up, and Vinnie Johnson.

But

1990 was the toughest year maybe of all-time for me. Ewing was excellent, but those other five guys were all in their primes and near or at their peak and are all top 25 players all-time to me whereas Ewing isn't even top 40 anymore. (With Wade, Dirk and LeBron passing him in the last two years). Barkley and Olajuwon were simply better (by quite a bit IMO) and Isiah was the best player and MVP for a 60-win repeat Champion. The Pistons and Knicks meet in the playoffs that year and Isiah was as good or better in 4 of 5 games.

Well, in general, Barkley and Olajuwon were better than Ewing throughout their primes, but this is a different case because Ewing was significantly better than any other year of his prime, and it's strange, but sometimes this happens. Part of it was due to Stu Jackson building the offense around him as well as Ewing getting stronger in the offseason and improving his offensive game in addition to being in his physical prime at 27 years old.

Olajuwon wasn't the all around player he was from '93-'95. His skills weren't far off, but he matured a lot as a playmaker and a leader under Rudy T and became a far superior option to run the offense through.

Ewing not only had the superior numbers, team success and all-nba 1st team over Olajuwon that year, but he performed much better in the playoffs. Hakeem was swarmed by LA, which made it tough, and he did make his defensive impact when he wasn't in foul trouble, but he had a subpar series by his standards.

I think in a year to year project, Ewing's '90 season has to be looked at separate from his others. Trust me, I was surprised to watching a bunch of '90 Ewing games and see a much more dominant player than the one I grew up watching on contending teams. I think the quotes from opponents such as Jordan, Mychal Thompson and Magic speak volumes as well as Manute Bol, Bill Musselman and Cotton Fitzsimmons calling Ewing the best center that year.

I don't want to dismiss Isiah's importance for his team, we saw that in '91 when he missed a lot of games and was limited in the playoffs. Dumars filled in at the point, and could do it to nobody's surprise since they used to have him handle the ball with Isiah off the ball, but their record fell off quite a bit with Isiah out.

Detroit was just a much deeper team to me, and their depth/variety of scoring options, along with their defense and rebounding are the things I think about most when I think of that team. If I were to single out any particular player, Isiah was the best.

But if you want to keep Isiah as the best player on a championship team and drop anyone, I'd drop Olajuwon honestly, he was far less significant to that particular season, imo than Ewing or Barkley.

In regards to 1992 Drexler belongs at number two because of the season's narrative. Clyde had been to the Finals in 1990, he had his best season in 1992, with Magic retired the West was up for grabs. Portland, San Antonio, Utah, Houston, Phoneix, they were all 50 win teams with marquee stars and it was Drexlers Blazers who emerged. Clyde finished second in the MVP voting, averaged an impressive 26-7-7 through the 20-some playoff games. Putting Drexler at #2 for the season helps tell the story of the season. As the finals began the pregame talk was of rather or not Glide had soared to MJ's heights. As it turned out, no, but he was as close as anyone else who ever took a shot during the two three-peats.

I understand it more since you said you were looking for more significant seasons rather than just best individual players. Drexler at 2nd in MVP voting and in the finals makes sense.

But I also think that Ewing and the Knicks taking the Bulls to 7 and starting one of the great rivalries also helps tell the story of the season better than Robinson who was sitting out for the season. Pippen maybe as well for '92, not sure where he'd be, but he was a huge part of that season with probably his best playoff run.

In regards to Ewing vs Robinson that year, I had to give Robinson the edge for a few reasons. One he finished third in the MVP voting and actually had an edge or was even in every major traditional statistical category. And while Ewing had a strong final game versus the aging Pistons in round one and the Knicks did battle very hard to push Chicago to seven, that series to me is further evidence why Ewing was never a true superstar. In the final two games in Chicago, which New York needed to win at least one of, Ewing was awful, shooting 13-39 and averaging just 18 points, 8 rebounds and 1 assist. Ewing never went down with a good effort in that era:

Well, Ewing was injured in game 6, and coming back from the injury to force a game 7 in '92 impressed me a lot. I'd rather have Ewing than Robinson going into the playoffs. You're right that Robinson had the statistics, except for scoring.

[G.O.A.T]

I've made some amendments to 1990 & 1992

I like where these lists are at much better now...

1990

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3, Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Isiah
Next Five: Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Bird, Drexler

1992

1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Ewing
5. Robinson
Next Five: Pippen, Mullin, Hakeem, Barkley, Rodman

EDIT: Changed my mind on 1992

[NugzHeat3]

Very nice responses Nugz

I only want to comment immediately on my criteria, but rest assured that much of your analysis as well as Shaqattack's have, as I'd hoped, forced me to reconsider or at the least reevaluate my opinions on a number of seasons.

I think your misunderstanding the point of my criteria. I am NOT trying to list the five best players from each season. I am trying to list the guys who had the five most important seasons. The five seasons I would be most proud of as that player or a fan of him. Now talent is obviously very important in making this decision, but more than just that goes into it.

Thanks for clarifying further. I did have a hint what you were basing your rankings on but I was a little confused as well.

Was Shaq a better player than Michael Jordan in 1998? probably.
Did he have a larger overall impact from game to game? I'd say yes.
Would I rather emerge as the future of the NBA in LA, average 28-11-3-3 shooting 60% fro the field or would I rather win the NBA finals on the last shot I ever take (should have been) securing my place as the greatest player of all-time during a season in which I won my fifth MVP? I bet you can guess.

And lets remember how Shaq's season ended. All of his major flaws were exposed and his team was annihilated by the aging Utah Jazz. In game one Shaq was 6-16 from the field while being guarded by Greg Ostertag. In game two the Diesel had just seven rebounds and was not able to score down the stretch as Utah took the lead in the fourth and won. In game three Shaq was awesome, but his 5-13 ft performance made him a non-factor late and Utah again dominated the fourth quarter for a win. Game four completed the sweep, which at this point of Shaq's career was a pretty regular thing. O'Neal's teams were swept out of the '94, '95, '96, '98 and '99 playoffs.

To tell someone Shaq was the leagues most significant player in 1998 only serves to under-emphasize the growth of Shaq under Phil Jackson that made him the most dominant force of the second 30 years of NBA history.

The bolded helps understand your line of thinking and I respect your perspective. I just disagree with that line of thinking because it seems to be rewarding the player of the year more so than the best in the league which I personally feel is what this type of list should be out. It

[jlip]

These are the types of threads that make ISH worth coming to.

[Legends66NBA7]

These are the types of threads that make ISH worth coming to.

Was going to say the same.

I'll enjoy reading everybody's response.

[G.O.A.T]

I believe Drexler was given too much importance and simply got more attention than he deserved as Jordan was the face of the league and with Drexler being a SG was chosen as his closest competitor.

yep.


[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Actually, you can accuse me of that since I

[pierce2008mvp]

Jordan was better than Magic in 1988. Won League MVP and DPOY. Magic won the title and didn't even get finals mvp, not to mention had to go thru 3 game 7's with far superior talent just to win.

[jlip]

Jordan was better than Magic in 1988. Won League MVP and DPOY. Magic won the title and didn't even get finals mvp, not to mention had to go thru 3 game 7's with far superior talent just to win.

Serious question...Who do you think truly deserved the '88 Finals MVP based upon their performances for the series, Magic or Worthy?

[pierce2008mvp]

Serious question...Who do you think truly deserved the '88 Finals MVP based upon their performances for the series, Magic or Worthy?

This is like asking who deserved the finals mvp in 1980 based on there performance for the series.

Anyway, Magic was better the first five games of the series and Worthy was better the last 2, but it was the last 2 games that gave LA the victory as thru the first 5 they were down 3-2.

[G.O.A.T]

This is like asking who deserved the finals mvp in 1980 based on there performance for the series.

Anyway, Magic was better the first five games of the series and Worthy was better the last 2, but it was the last 2 games that gave LA the victory as thru the first 5 they were down 3-2.

On what planet was Worthy better in game six?

And it's not like Magic had any bad games in the series. He averaged 21-6-13-2 on 55% shooting. Worthy was a complete non-factor in games three and four in Detroit when the Pistons took control of the series.

[OldSchoolBBall]

in 1993?

He didnt even play that well that season

He had back issues i think

No, that comment was for 1994, as noted.

[OldSchoolBBall]

On what planet was Worthy better in game six?

And it's not like Magic had any bad games in the series. He averaged 21-6-13-2 on 55% shooting. Worthy was a complete non-factor in games three and four in Detroit when the Pistons took control of the series.

Worthy winning FMVP may as well have been to right the injustice that occurred in 1980 when Magic won it over KAJ. Similar situations where one player has the better series, but the other has the better closeout game and thus is fresher/more prominent in voters' minds.