Wilt's 65-66 H2H's

[LAZERUSS]

And finally, the Russell-Wilt H2H's in 65-66, including playoffs.

1.
Russell: 5 pts, 29 rebs, 5 ast, 2-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 30 pts, 24 rebs

2.
Russell: 6 pts, 22 rebs, 5 ast, 2-8 FG/FGA
Wilt: 27 pts, 32 rebs

3.
Russell: 13 pts, 10 rebs, 9 ast, 6-18 FG/FGA
Wilt: 28 pts, 30 rebs, 2 ast, 12-19 FG/FGA

4.
Russell: 11 pts, 17 rebs, 2 ast, 4-14 FG/FGA
Wilt: 31 pts, 40 rebs

5.
Russell: 14 pts, 25 rebs, 6 ast, 5-15 FG/FGA
Wilt: 37 pts, 42 rebs

6.
Russell: 13 pts, 21 rebs, 3 ast, 5-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 14 pts, 16 rebs, 2 ast, 6-12 FG/FGA

7.
Russell: 3 pts, 27 rebs
Wilt: 29 pts, 26 rebs, 4 ast, 11-21 FG/FGA

8.
Russell: 13 pts, 20 rebs, 3 ast, 6-20 FG/FGA
Wilt: 27 pts, 36 rebs, 4 ast, 11-25 FG/FGA

9.
Russell: 8 pts, 20 rebs, 3 ast, 3-9 FG/FGA
Wilt: 32 pts, 30 rebs, 5 ast, 10-19 FG/FGA

Known regular season averages:

Russell: 9.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 5.0 apg, .321 FG%

Wilt: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, .521 FG%

BTW, Russell's FG% is based on eight known games, out of their nine H2H, and in the one we don't have his FG%, he only made 1 shot. It is likely that he shot even less than .321 against Wilt that season.


Playoffs:

Game 1:
Russell: 13 pts, 18 rebs
Wilt: 25 pts, 32 rebs

Game 2:
Russell: 10 pts, 29 rebs, 9 ast
Wilt: 23 pts, 25 rebs

Game 3:
Russell: 11 pts, 23 rebs, 3 ast, 4-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 31 pts, 27 rebs, 4 ast, 12-22 FG/FGA

Game 4:
Russell: 18 pts, 30 rebs, 7 ast, 7-15 FG/FGA
Wilt: 15 pts, 33 rebs, 3 ast, 7-14 FG/FGA and 6 blocks

Game 5:
Russell: 18 pts, 31 rebs
Wilt: 46 pts, 34 rebs, 19-34 FG/FGA

While we don't have all of Wilt's FG%'s in that series, we know he shot .509 from the field.

BTW, in that game four, in which it LOOKS like Russell MAY have outplayed Wilt (for the ONLY time in that series), newspaper recaps claimed that Chamberlain almost single-handedly won the game by himself.

Overall known averages:

Russell: 14 ppg, 26.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, .423 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, .509 FG%, with 1 game of 6 blks


Total known averages for their 14 H2H games that season:

Russell: 11.1 ppg, 23.0 rpg, 5.4 apg, .341 FG%
Wilt: 28.2 ppg, 30.5 rpg, 3.4 apg, .515 FG%


Wilt outscored Russell by a 13-1 margin, including staggering margins of 31-11, 31-11, 27-6, 37-14, 32-8, 30-5, 29-3, and 46-18.

Chamberlain outrebounded Russell 10-4, including margins of 30-20, 32-22, 32-18, 36-20, 42-25, 30-10, and 40-17.

He also outshot Russell in all known H2H games in which we have both of their FG/FGAs.

Just a complete demolition of Russell in the entire season.

[fpliii]

Lazeruss - How would you rate each of Wilt's seasons, from 1-10, in terms of offense/defense?

[LAZERUSS]

Russell's Celtics were 10-0 vs. Bellamy's Knicks and 8-2 vs. Nate's Warriors in 65-66. When I see such one-sided team records I take the stats with a grain of salt. Undoubtedly lot of Bellamy/Thurmond numbers were accumulated in garbage time. Much like Wilt's numbers against Russell in many years.

And Thurmond wasn't in his prime in 65-66... averaged 16.3/18.0/1.5 on 40.6% shooting. His best numbers were around 20 ppg and 4 apg on 45% shooting and his defense got better as well based on team impact and DWS.

Everyone knows Russell in 65-66 was a monster. Averaged 19.1/25.2/5.0 on 47.5% shooting in the playoffs on the way to a dominant title. Boston dispatched Oscar's Royals, then Wilt's Sixers (who won 1 more game), and then West/Baylor Lakers in the Finals where Russ averaged 23.6/24.3/3.6 on 53.8% shooting along with masterful defense. We have his games of 6 blocks/3 steals and 11 blocks in the series.

And Chamberlain absolutely CRUSHED him (as he ALWAYS did.) Just read above.

Thurmond may not have been in his prime in 65-66, but he was at his PEAK the very NEXT season.

And I get so sick and tired of these so-called "garbage time" stats. Just take a look at the Wilt-Russell H2H's in 62-63. It looks one-sided when you see Russell's Celtics with an 8-1 series edge (of course, he had an 8-0 edge in HOF teammates that year, too.) BUT, four of the games were decided by single digits, one of them that was not, was a double digit OT loss, and in another, Wilt's team won. And all of them were relatively close going into the 4th quarters. And I suspect that they both played nearly the same minutes, as they almost always did.

Again, Wilt annihilated Russell that season, just as he did in EVERY season from in their careers. And the only post-season in which Russell was even in the same ballpark, 68-69, and in Wilt's worst post-season of his career (thanks to an incompetent coach), and even then, Wilt had an edge.

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss - How would you rate each of Wilt's seasons, from 1-10, in terms of offense/defense?

A mid-60's Chamberlain, from 63-64 to 68-69, was probably nearly the equal of Russell, and in fact, I believe he was an even greater defensive force from 66-67 thru 67-68.

He blew out his knee early in 69-70, and that hobbled him into the 70-71 season. Still, in his five regular season H2H's, and then five playoff H2H's with KAJ, he held Kareem to .438 shooting in the regular season, and .481 in the post-season, in perhaps KAJ's greatest overall season.

He was voted first team all-defense in both of his last two seasons (71-72 and 72-73), as well, and by most every account, would have won DPOY of the year in '71-72 had the award existed.

So, as best as I can answer it...

1. 66-67 (I know, it doesn't show up as his best DWS season, but just look at what he did to his HOF teammates that season.)

2. 67-68.

3. 65-66. (Again, he just slaughtered his HOF peers.)

4. 63-64. (Take a look at his TEAM's defensive improvement that season.

5. 71-72. (Held KAJ to .457 in the WCF's, and .414 in the last four games of that series.)

6. 72-73. (Held KAJ to .450 shooting in six regular season H2H's, while shooting .737 himself.) Also outshot Nate in the WCF's, .611 to .373.

7. 68-69. (Still a defensive force, and in fact had a nationally televised game with a recorded 23 blocked shots, which, of course, would be the REAL record.)

8. 70-71. Only a year after major knee surgery, and again, held a peak KAJ to WAY below his normal FG%s over the course of 10 straight games.

9. 69-70. We will never know. He shredded his knee in game nine, and missed 73 games. He was well below 100% in the post-season. However, early on in that season, and before he blew out his knee, he crushed rookie KAJ, outscoring him, 25-23, and outshooting him from the floor, 9-14 to 9-21.

As a side note, he was sick for much of the first half of the 64-65 season, and was subsequently traded, but he was brilliant in the post-season. He single-handedly carried an average roster to a game seven, one-point loss, against a HOF-laden 62-18 Celtic team that was at the peak of it's dynasty.

Those would be my best guesses...

[dankok8]

And Chamberlain absolutely CRUSHED him (as he ALWAYS did.) Just read above.

Thurmond may not have been in his prime in 65-66, but he was at his PEAK the very NEXT season.

He wasn't. Not by numbers, not by impact, not by experience.

And I get so sick and tired of these so-called "garbage time" stats. Just take a look at the Wilt-Russell H2H's in 62-63. It looks one-sided when you see Russell's Celtics with an 8-1 series edge (of course, he had an 8-0 edge in HOF teammates that year, too.) BUT, four of the games were decided by single digits, one of them that was not, was a double digit OT loss, and in another, Wilt's team won. And all of them were relatively close going into the 4th quarters. And I suspect that they both played nearly the same minutes, as they almost always did.

Say Wilt has 10/10 at the half and Russell has 20/15 and Boston has a 25-point half-time lead. The game ends as a 15-point Celtics win so Wilt's team was never close but the final boxscore stats are 35/30 Wilt vs. 25/25 Russell. In the second half with his team up big Russell of course doesn't bother to exert much energy to defend Wilt and lets him have his "meaningless" numbers.

Who outplayed who in such a scenario?

Such situations like I described above were very common in Wilt-Russell H2H's...

Again, Wilt annihilated Russell that season, just as he did in EVERY season from in their careers. And the only post-season in which Russell was even in the same ballpark, 68-69, and in Wilt's worst post-season of his career (thanks to an incompetent coach), and even then, Wilt had an edge.

He didn't annihilate him... Russell outplayed Wilt even statistically in Game 2 and Game 4 of the '66 EDF. Apart from Game 5 Wilt had a very subpar series through the first four games averaging 23.5 ppg on 48.7% shooting including getting blown out in the first two games.

[julizaver]

Here were Nate's 10 H2H games against Russell in that 65-66 season:

Game 1:
Nate: 18 pts, 27 rebs
Russell: 17 pts, 22 rebs, 7-13 FG/FGA

Game 2:
Nate: 19 pts, 12 rebs
Russell: 8 pts, 20 rebs, 4-9 FG/FGA

Game 3:
Nate: 20 pts
Russell: 8 pts, 28 rebs

Game 4:
Nate: 21 pts, 31 rebs
Russell: 13 pts, 24 rebs, 4-11 FG/FGA

Game 5:
Nate: 19 pts
Russell: 16 pts, 24 rebs

Game 6:
Nate: 25 pts, 27 rebs
Russell: 15 pts, 11 rebs, 6-12 FG/FGA

Game 7:
Nate: 24 pts, 24 rebs
Russell: 10 pts, 28 rebs

Game 8:
Nate: 34 pts, 19 rebs
Russell: 8 pts, 24 rebs, 2-8 FG/FGA

Game 9:
Nate: 23 pts, 23 rebs
Russell: 12 pts, 19 rebs

Game 10:
Nate: 11 pts, 14 rebs
Russell: 11 pts, 23 rebs, 5-13 FG/FGA

Known season averages:

Nate: 20.2 ppg, 22.2 rpg
Russell: 11.8 ppg, 22.3 rpg, .429 FG%

Without knowing all of their FG% numbers, I would think that Thurmond easily outplayed Russell.


Not bad for a "non-prime" Nate, don't you think?

I have FG/FGA data for seven games of Thurmond and it is 0.415. Russell had clear edge in the assists department probably 5-6 to 2-3.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Since there is considerable research available regarding H2H games, and continuing on the theme of Chamberlain's 66-67 H2H's, I am going back a year, to what I believe was Wilt's greatest season, his 65-66 campaign.

Here is a link to recap his 66-67 domination of his HOF peers:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=321988


And before I start his 65-66 matchups, I thought I would include his 64-65 H2H's with Willis Reed. Why? Because the Knicks brought in Walt Bellamy before the start of the start of the 65-66 season, and subsequently moved Reed to the PF position. And while I am reasonably certain that Reed at least occasionally defended Wilt in the Bellamy years, their 64-65 seasonal H2H's were much more representative of how the two played against each other.

Unfortunately, just as was the case in 65-66, some stat-lines were very incomplete. In the case of Reed's 64-65, there were only two games, out of his 12 H2H's with Wilt (yes, 12 H2H games) in which I could gather rebounding numbers, and zero with his FG%. As for Chamberlain, the scoring and rebounding are complete, but FG% data was missing for two of those 12 games. Still, 10 games out of 12 should give a solid indication of just how efficient he was in those games.

Again, these H2H's are from their 64-65 season:

1.
Reed: 23 pts, 16 rebs.
Wilt: 52 pts, 21 rebs, 3 ast, 21-43 FG/FGA

2.
Reed: 38 pts.
Wilt: 41 pts, 21 rebs, 6 ast, 17-33 FG/FGA

3.
Reed: 25 pts.
Wilt: 36 pts., 22 rebs, 6 ast, 16-? FG/FGA

4.
Reed: 28 pts.
Wilt: 58 pts, 22 rebs, 5 ast, 25-45 FG/FGA

5.
Reed: 25 pts.
Wilt: 46 pts, 18 rebs, 19-39 FG/FGA

6.
Reed: 8 pts.
Wilt: 41 pts, 32 rebs, 17-35 FG/FGA

7.
Reed: 12 pts, 18 rebs
Wilt: 29 pts, 17 rebs, 14-? FG/FGA

8.
Reed: 35 pts
Wilt: 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 ast, 14-25 FG/FGA

9.
Reed: 24 pts
Wilt: 37 pts, 32 rebs, 2 ast, 14-22 FG/FGA

10.
Reed: 20 pts
Wilt: 30 pts, 18 rebs, 1 ast, 9-15 FG/FGA

11.
Reed: 22 pts
Wilt: 37 pts, 28 rebs, 3 ast, 18-30 FG/FGA

12.
Reed: 14 pts
Wilt: 27 pts, 11 rebs, 6 ast, 12-25 FG/FGA


Known averages:

Reed averaged 22.8 ppg and in his two known games, 17.0 rpg
Wilt averaged 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, .532 FG% (league shot .426 BTW.)

Wilt outscored Reed in 11 of the 12 games. Reed did manage to go 1-1 in their known rebounding H2H's. as a sidenote, Wilt had games of 13 and 11 rebounds, which were unusually low for him.

As you can see, Chamberlain also had five games of 40+, which included two of 50+. And he held some eye-popping scoring margins, as well. Margins of 46-25, 52-23, 58-28, and 41-8 among them.

Next...on to the 65-66 H2H's, including the post-season, with Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell...

Then when it really mattered in the 1970 and 1973 NBA Finals, Willis Reed led his team to 2 NBA Championship victories and winning Finals MVP twice over Wilt Chamberlain.

[LAZERUSS]

He wasn't. Not by numbers, not by impact, not by experience.



Say Wilt has 10/10 at the half and Russell has 20/15 and Boston has a 25-point half-time lead. The game ends as a 15-point Celtics win so Wilt's team was never close but the final boxscore stats are 35/30 Wilt vs. 25/25 Russell. In the second half with his team up big Russell of course doesn't bother to exert much energy to defend Wilt and lets him have his "meaningless" numbers.

Who outplayed who in such a scenario?

Such situations like I described above were very common in Wilt-Russell H2H's...



He didn't annihilate him... Russell outplayed Wilt even statistically in Game 2 and Game 4 of the '66 EDF. Apart from Game 5 Wilt had a very subpar series through the first four games averaging 23.5 ppg on 48.7% shooting including getting blown out in the first two games.

Prove it. And I don't want 3 or 4 recaps, either, but the full 143 H2H's, including all 49 playoff games, most all of which were VERY CLOSE.

I wish I had Celts84 recap of one game between Russell and Wilt early in their careers, when the Celtics had a 20+ point second half lead. Wilt's Warriors came back to win that game, and Chamberlain hung 47 points on him in the process.

Looking at how many close playoff games the two played, and with Chamberlain just overwhelming Russell in so many of them, there is no question as to who the real best player was.

As for the 65-66 EDF's, Russell didn't outplay Wilt in ONE game. But his TEAMMATES just crushed Wilt's. And please, don't give me this ridiculous nonsense that it was Wilt's fault. He played EXACTLY the same way as he did against Russell in the regular season, when his team held a 6-3 edge. And don't giv me the assists as some kind of example. Chamberlain's teammates shot .352 in that series. I suspect that Wilt lost several assists a game because of it.

Oh, and in that clinching game five loss, Chamberlain destroyed Russell with a 46-34 game.

Now, answer me this...

Russell was in the same exact situation a year later. His team had narrowly avoided an embarrassing sweep in a close game four win. So, now it was RUSSELL who was facing elimination in that game five. Did he come out and smoke Wilt with a 46-34 game? Hell no. He quitely went like a lamb to slaughter. In a game in which his teammates were finally neutralized by Wilt's, he put up a meager FOUR points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and seven assists. Oh, and how did Wilt "the choker" do in that game? He poured in 29 points, 22 of which came in the first half when the game was still in doubt (and proved, of course, that he could have hung 40+ on him had he needed to), on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and at least seven blocks.

What happened? How could the great Russell have allowed such a thing to happen? The reality was, Russell's TEAMMATES almost always outplayed Wilt's. In fact, Wilt's teammates usually puked all over the floor in the playoffs, particularly their biggest ones.

Had they had equal rosters, and likely it would have been Wilt with 9 or 10 rings in the 60's.

[LAZERUSS]

I have FG/FGA data for seven games of Thurmond and it is 0.415. Russell had clear edge in the assists department probably 5-6 to 2-3.

So, this "non-prime" Nate averaged 20.2 ppg, 22.2 rpg, and shot somewhere around .416 in his seasonal H2H's with a prime Russell, who averaged 11.8 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot .429 against him...in 10 H2H games.

Yep...a "non-prime" Nate alright...

[LAZERUSS]

Then when it really mattered in the 1970 and 1973 NBA Finals, Willis Reed led his team to 2 NBA Championship victories and winning Finals MVP twice over Wilt Chamberlain.

And was outplayed by Wilt in both. Oh, and both were by a well-past his prime Chamberlain, as well.

Of course, I could also add that in the 67-68 playoffs, although Wilt didn't defend Reed (instead he held Bellamy to .421 shooting), Chamberlain led BOTH teams in scoring (25 ppg), rebounding (24 rpg), assists (6.0 apg), and FG% (.584), in a 4-2 series win.

[LAZERUSS]

Such situations like I described above were very common in Wilt-Russell H2H's..

BTW, I won't take the time to look up the MANY CLOSE games playoff games between the two, but just off the top of my head...

In game two of the '62 EDF's, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him, 37-20, in a seven point WIN.

In game four of the '64 Finals, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 27-8, and outrebounded him, 38-19, in a game that was decided in the last few seconds.

In game seven of the '65 EDF's, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 30-15, outshot Russell from the field, 12-15, outrebounded Russell, 32-29, and scored six of Philly's last eight points, including a thunderous dunk over Russell in the last five seconds, of a 110-109 loss. BTW, following that dunk, Russell hit a guidewire on the inbounds pass, giving Philly the ball, and a chance to win the game. Of course, it was a Russell TEAMMATE who saved him, when "Havlickek steals the ball!" But I guess Russell was exceptional at gauging these things, that he knew if he could "hold" Wilt to a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, .555 FG% series, that his team would win the seventh game by one point.

Again, those were just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could fine MANY more like them. And, if we include the regular season, I'm sure it would approach well over 50, and perhaps exceed a 100.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And was outplayed by Wilt in both. Oh, and both were by a well-past his prime Chamberlain, as well.

Of course, I could also add that in the 67-68 playoffs, although Wilt didn't defend Reed (instead he held Bellamy to .421 shooting), Chamberlain led BOTH teams in scoring (25 ppg), rebounding (24 rpg), assists (6.0 apg), and FG% (.584), in a 4-2 series win.

Who won the championships and who won the Finals MVPs?
And Reed through the first 4 games of the '70 finals before he got injured torched Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Who won the championships and who won the Finals MVPs?
And Reed through the first 4 games of the '70 finals before he got injured torched Wilt.

The were basically a statistical draw, at 2-2. And, Wilt was pounding Reed in game five before he went down with his injury.

Of course, let's not bring up the fact that Wilt was playing only four months after major knee surgery, and was nowhere near 100%, either.

And here were their two H2H games in the 68-69 season, after Bellamy was traded, and Reed moved center:

1.
Reed: 14 pts, 7 rebs
Wilt: 31 pts, 23 rebs, 11-17 FG/FGA

2.
Reed: 26 pts, 12 rebs
Wilt: 25 pts, 21 rebs, 11-15 FG/FGA

[Deuce Bigalow]

The were basically a statistical draw, at 2-2. And, Wilt was pounding Reed in game five before he went down with his injury.

Of course, let's not bring up the fact that Wilt was playing only four months after major knee surgery, and was nowhere near 100%, either.

And here were their two H2H games in the 68-69 season, after Bellamy was traded, and Reed moved center:

1.
Reed: 14 pts, 7 rebs
Wilt: 31 pts, 23 rebs, 11-17 FG/FGA

2.
Reed: 26 pts, 12 rebs
Wilt: 25 pts, 21 rebs, 11-15 FG/FGA

Eveybody already knows Wilt was a regular season God, I'm talking about the NBA Finals.

Reed- 2x champion, 2x Finals MVP, outplayed Wilt in the '70 Finals before injury, 2-1 Finals series H2H

[ArbitraryWater]

Great finder of stats!