Shaq's teams with and without him from 2001-2007

[Roundball_Rock]

Arbitrary is right. If he was a liability he would have been taken out. He was not a liability, though, and he was not benched. He was limited, not a liability. Remember, it was Shaq who provided the iconic moment of that dynasty when he (with an assist from Kobe) sealed the Lakers' win over Portland in Game 7 of 2000.

[TheMarkMadsen]

We'll say this again, simply because the point isn't getting through. The Lakers need to go to O'Neal consistently through the first three quarters, then to Bryant in the fourth.

O'Neal still does more to affect the other team--he's always the focal point of their defensive strategy--and sending the ball inside opens more shots for rest of the team. But his free-throw shooting makes him a fourth-quarter liability, while Bryant's one-on-one skills and clutch shooting make him a perfect go-to guy in crunch time.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jan/11/sports/sp-10977

But O'Neal became a liability when the Pacers deployed the Hack-a-Shaq strategy judiciously down the stretch

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.858108

Jordan gives you comparable/superior production in the regular and postseasons and on top of that gives you Kobe on steroids in the 4th quarter and clutch time, which was always Shaq's liability due to his FT shooting (and to a lesser extent a center's comparative lack of ability to generate offense). He was also able to raise his game on command more frequently than Shaq when needed and just win games himself. Not sure how you don't take him here. I'm certainly not saying the gap is large (it's not at all), only that I don't see the case for Shaq.

Good post, pretty spot on summary.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=191566&page=7

[Roundball_Rock]

We are engaging in semantics. To me and Arbitrary "liability" means being a net negative, hence requiring your removal to the bench. Frankly I wish Shaq was on the bench at the end of Game 7 in 2000!

[LeBird]

Neither Shaq nor Duncan have a case for me over Bird and Magic; they factor in afterwards from about 6-10. I have Shaq slightly higher than Duncan.

Simply put, a professional Shaq could have been GOAT but because he rarely was he falls short of that caliber/group of players. Shaq, considering the era, should have had a Jordanesque ring count, MVP count and to go a career with such an abysmal free-throw shooting record is a disgrace.

I just can't imagine guys like Russell, Bird or Magic not pushing the limits so as to get to a victory. That's the difference, they did it by any means necessary. Getting Shaq to stay fit and not disrupt the team unity is another weakness that might not show up in the numbers but says a lot about him as a competitor. I guess this is where Duncan also is superior to Shaq but I think overall Shaq was a more dominant player than Duncan.

[ArbitraryWater]

I never said they took Shaq out at then end of game. I said he was a liability in the forth quarter of close games due to his poor free throw shooting which he was.

You literally made up a claim, and then asked me to disprove it



Take the L and move on

Wait.. so you say Shaq was a liability in 4th quarters (unlike Magic, Bird, Shaq), and all you can offer is show a poor clutch series to support your myth?

Okay, excuse me for thinking you weren't that dumb.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wait.. so you say Shaq was a liability in 4th quarters (unlike Magic, Bird, Shaq), and all you can offer is show a poor clutch series to support your myth?

Okay, excuse me for thinking you weren't that dumb.

way to dodge the impossible to miss post on this page and instead respond to the post on the last page



...

We'll say this again, simply because the point isn't getting through. The Lakers need to go to O'Neal consistently through the first three quarters, then to Bryant in the fourth.

O'Neal still does more to affect the other team--he's always the focal point of their defensive strategy--and sending the ball inside opens more shots for rest of the team. But his free-throw shooting makes him a fourth-quarter liability, while Bryant's one-on-one skills and clutch shooting make him a perfect go-to guy in crunch time.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jan/11/sports/sp-10977

But O'Neal became a liability when the Pacers deployed the Hack-a-Shaq strategy judiciously down the stretch

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.858108

Jordan gives you comparable/superior production in the regular and postseasons and on top of that gives you Kobe on steroids in the 4th quarter and clutch time, which was always Shaq's liability due to his FT shooting (and to a lesser extent a center's comparative lack of ability to generate offense). He was also able to raise his game on command more frequently than Shaq when needed and just win games himself. Not sure how you don't take him here. I'm certainly not saying the gap is large (it's not at all), only that I don't see the case for Shaq.

Good post, pretty spot on summary.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=191566&page=7

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shaq being a 4th quarter liability due to poor free throw shooting is common knowledge

as much as you want to try and revise history THE LINKS STILL EXIST from 00 & 01 from the LA times all calling for the ball to go to Kobe in the 4th due to Shaq being a liability.

62% FT shooting in the 4th quarter isn't helping your argument, that's still horrible.

and it's funny that you would bring up 2001, Kobe absolutly dominated the first 3 rounds averaging 32/7/6 on 50% while leading the entire league in 4th quarter playoff scoring. The only game the Lakers lost that entire post season was the only bad game Kobe played..Shaq went 10 of 22 from the line and 2/6 in the 4th quarter/OT once again being a liability in late games at the line

Lakers were going to Kobe in the 4th quarters, not Shaq

[mehyaM24]

data isn't available for 2000, and 2002 is already accounted for (shaq shot 62.5% from the FT line in clutch situations during the 4th qtr, which is hardly a liability - this according to john schuhmann who writes for the nba).

however, we can delve back into the 2000-01 postsesaon. when kobe played arguably his best basketball of the 3-peat. here are shaq's FT numbers per series.

sixers 2001
game 1 - 2/6
game 2 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
game 3 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
gane 4 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
game 5 - 3/6 = 50%

spurs 2001
game 1 2/2 = 100%
game 2 1/1 = 100%
game 3 never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
game 4 never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)

kings 2001
game 1 - 2/6
game 2 - 4/7 = 57%
game 3 - 3/10 (lakers were winning by ~20 points for most of that quarter)
game 4 - 3/5

blazers 2001
game 1 - 5/7 = 71%
game 2 - 1/1 = 100%
game 3 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...130SAC.html#q4 (play-by-play data for every series)

^^ 7/16 of these playoff games were decided through the first 3 quarters ( at 4th quarter playoff scoring - the lakers took care of business early half the time). double lol @ peak shaq EVER being a "liability" from the free throw line WHEN IT COUNTED.

when we combine these facts with shaq being CLEARLY the best player on the lakers, and finals mvp for every championship, his MDE moniker only becomes stronger.

[mehyaM24]

Shaq being a 4th quarter liability due to poor free throw shooting is common knowledge

as much as you want to try and revise history THE LINKS STILL EXIST from 00 & 01 from the LA times all calling for the ball to go to Kobe in the 4th due to Shaq being a liability.

62% FT shooting in the 4th quarter isn't helping your argument, that's still horrible.

and it's funny that you would bring up 2001, Kobe absolutly dominated the first 3 rounds averaging 32/7/6 on 50% while leading the entire league in 4th quarter playoff scoring. The only game the Lakers lost that entire post season was the only bad game Kobe played..Shaq went 10 of 22 from the line and 2/6 in the 4th quarter/OT once again being a liability in late games at the line

Lakers were going to Kobe in the 4th quarters, not Shaq

^^^^ kobe fans holding onto "the first 3 rounds" because they know he wets the bed in the finals. LMFAO

btw, as the stats show, shaq was FAR from a liability. you lost all credibility brah.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

data isn't available for 2000, and 2002 is already accounted for (shaq shot 62.5% from the FT line in clutch situations during the 4th qtr, which is hardly a liability - this according to john schuhmann who writes for the nba).

however, we can delve back into the 2000-01 postsesaon. when kobe played arguably his best basketball of the 3-peat. here are shaq's FT numbers per series.

sixers 2001
game 1 - 2/6
game 2 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
game 3 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
gane 4 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
game 5 - 3/6 = 50%

spurs 2001
game 1 2/2 = 100%
game 2 1/1 = 100%
game 3 never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)
game 4 never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)

kings 2001
game 1 - 2/6
game 2 - 4/7 = 57%
game 3 - 3/10 (lakers were winning by ~20 points for most of that quarter)
game 4 - 3/5

blazers 2001
game 1 - 5/7 = 71%
game 2 - 1/1 = 100%
game 3 - never shot free throws in the 4th quarter (game out of reach/blowout)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...130SAC.html#q4 (play-by-play data for every series)

^^ 7/16 of these playoff games were decided through the first 3 quarters ( at 4th quarter playoff scoring - the lakers took care of business early half the time). double lol @ peak shaq EVER being a "liability" from the free throw line WHEN IT COUNTED.

when we combine these facts with shaq being CLEARLY the best player on the lakers, and finals mvp for every championship, his MDE moniker only becomes stronger.

Hold this L, Kobe fans. Ouch

[TheMarkMadsen]

^^^^ kobe fans holding onto "the first 3 rounds" because they know he wets the bed in the finals. LMFAO

btw, as the stats show, shaq was FAR from a liability. you lost all credibility brah.

what stats? the stats that show Shaq was a horrible free throw shooter, the stats that show Kobe as being the LEAGUE LEADER in 4th quarter playoff scoring for 2001 and 2002?

oh and for this final dose of ether (as if the other links weren't enough) here is Shaq himself acknowledging his stigma of being a 4th quarter liability as early as 97

The source says O'Neal believes there are times, such as during the fourth quarter, when the ball should find its way into his hands so he can show his poor free-throw shooting is not a liability.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...oneal-nick-van

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

what stats? the stats that show Shaq was a horrible free throw shooter, the stats that show Kobe as being the LEAGUE LEADER in 4th quarter playoff scoring for 2001 and 2002?

oh and for this final dose of ether (as if the other links weren't enough) here is Shaq himself acknowledging his stigma of being a 4th quarter liability as early as 97

Being a 62% shooter isn't a FT liability. Shooting under 50% aka Deandre Jordan is a legit threat to miss both free throws (a REAL liability).

You've taken many L's on this site, I would wear this one with honor.

[AirBourne92]

TheMarkMadson is just going on a killing spree

never seen so many ethers is 1 thread.

dude's legit going 06 kobe mode with the killer streaks here

[mehyaM24]

what stats?

the stats that show he wasn't a liability. the stats that show shaq put away other teams half the time, and when he didn't, was still by far the teams best player as RAPM, PER, and his FMVP accolades suggest.

[AirBourne92]

Being a 62% shooter isn't a FT liability.

wow

you should be banned from posting