Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 155
  1. #16
    Good High School Starter Miller for 3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    955

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Dirk. Better offensive anchor and had more impact. Baylor played on some sub .500 teams and Dirk's team have been winning 50+ games for over a decade. Baylor left the Lakers and they immediatley went on a 33 game winning streak, while whenever Dirk has missed games due to injury the Mavs struggle to even be competive in games

  2. #17
    Local High School Star Vienceslav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,457

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odinn
    I didn't get this. How can there are 11 forwards better than Baylor&Nowitzki?


    In Deuce Bigalow's GOAT project; Nowitzki was #18 and Baylor was #20.

    Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Julius Erving, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett are the forwards ranked above Baylor&Nowitzki. Bob Pettit was #22. LeBron and Havlicek didn't get their position yet. At maximum I can name 9 forwards arguably or non-arguably better than Baylor&Nowitzki. But Baylor vs. Nowitzki thread is making for 12th spot?
    Well Nowitzki can advance multiple times on this list if he wins this ,,match-up,, with Baylor.The upward ranking method can auto-correct itself.
    My vote goes to Dirk.

  3. #18
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    20,702

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    Pippen vs. Havlicek would have been a good debate though.
    Fatal, i'll probably make a thread about that then.

  4. #19
    Local High School Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,082

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Dirk having a comfortable advantage so far...

  5. #20
    Serious playground baller RobertdeMeijer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    419

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Dirk Nowitzki

    Offensive ability:
    Dirk was the proficient but not flashy, Elgin was flashy but not proficient
    Slight advantage Dirk

    Defensive ability:
    Neither were known for their defense, which I find both slightly below average for their position.
    Tie

    Accolades:
    Baylor has more first team. But Dirk had to compete with Duncan, James and Garnett
    Slight advantage Elgin

    Achievements:
    Elgin was tied for the best player on alot of teams that went to the finals. Dirk was the best player on a bunch of 60 win teams, a finals team and a finals winner
    Tie

    Playing style:
    Elgin is known for being the first above-the-rim guy. But I do wonder if we'll ever see another Dirk
    Sight advantage Elgin

    Story:
    Baylor kept losing in the finals, stopped playing, and missed out on being part of perhaps the best team ever. Dirk kept losing for years on end, gets together with a bunch of veterens who also deserved rings, and takes revenge on the team that beat them five years ago, only now they're chock full of talent and hubris.
    Advantage: Dirk

    Playing ability in a vacume:
    Looking at Baylor, he wouldn't be in the NBA. If Dirk played in the 60's, he'd be a 7 foot Jerry West.
    Advantage: Dirk

    Statistics:
    Baylor had some pretty good playoff runs, but Dirk had a whopping 5.4 win shares in the 2006 playoffs (second highest of all time). Dirk was also the player with the most win shares of the 00's.
    Slight advantage: Dirk

  6. #21
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    29,715

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    I'm confused as to how there are 11 better forwards than Baylor and Dirk. Considering both are usually in the top 20 on current all time lists.

    This is really impossible for us all because 99% of us didn't watch Baylor.

    I'll go with Dirk because most of the stats that adjust for pace and league averages favor him. And the way people rank here, titles are really important. Dirk now has one. And got one in about the most impressive fashion possible.

  7. #22
    The Magic are a trash HylianNightmare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,562

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Dirk is going to take this one but i'm curious to see the rest of the roster...

  8. #23
    Utah Jazz (6-6) Yung D-Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Jerry Sloan's Doghouse
    Posts
    11,264

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    I'm confused as to how there are 11 better forwards than Baylor and Dirk. Considering both are usually in the top 20 on current all time lists.

    This is really impossible for us all because 99% of us didn't watch Baylor.

    I'll go with Dirk because most of the stats that adjust for pace and league averages favor him. And the way people rank here, titles are really important. Dirk now has one. And got one in about the most impressive fashion possible.
    Hondo
    Bird
    DR J
    Barkley
    Garnett
    Malone
    Duncan
    Petit

    None of them have been voted yet so who knows =O

  9. #24
    I make 50-feet jumpers Odinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,041

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vienceslav
    Well Nowitzki can advance multiple times on this list if he wins this ,,match-up,, with Baylor.The upward ranking method can auto-correct itself.
    My vote goes to Dirk.
    Nope. If Baylor lose in this round, he will be 13th in the list which is not accurate about him. You can not name 12 forwards better than Baylor.

    And the same goes for Nowitzki. That was my point.

  10. #25
    11/13 Big164's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,972

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41

    This is really impossible for us all because 99% of us didn't watch Baylor.
    This excuse needs to be retired.

    100% of us never saw Babe Ruth play, or Bill Russell for that matter. We rank them top 5 because they PROVED it with their accomplishments. The only thing Baylor proved is that he was so bad he shot 38% as slasher.

    Sometimes seeing a player actually clouds judgement. If the 1960s era saw Steve Franics play they'd hail him the 2nd coming of Christ. Probably how they saw Baylor.

    If you evaluate things objectively, Elgin Baylor doesn't belong in the top 15. He had more help than any other player, and still went ringless. He is a flashy inefficient chucker with inflated reb stats, nothing more.

  11. #26
    owwwww
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,505

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odinn
    Nope. If Baylor lose in this round, he will be 13th in the list which is not accurate about him. You can not name 12 forwards better than Baylor.
    I can name 13 off the top of my head who are either outright better or have a case...

    Bird
    Duncan
    KG
    Dr. J
    Malone
    Barkley
    Dirk
    Pettit
    LeBron
    Barry
    Pippen
    McHale
    Hondo

    Quote Originally Posted by PTB Fan
    Who's the better offensive player in your opinion? I've got Baylor, but it isn't by big margins.
    The big gap in their efficiency alone is enough to make Dirk better for me but then you compare their playing styles?

    With Dirk creating mismatches, drawing bigs out of the paint, being able to score perfectly in a team setting in that you can iso him anywhere on the floor when you need a basket and you can work him into an offense without forcing it through him (through pick and pop, kick outs etc), spaces out the floor well for the entire team (very unique for his position), and on top of that he's an amazing decision maker with the ball (for a guy taking close to 20 shots a game and 7-8 FTs, it's remarkable how little he turns the ball over) who scores at a near 50/40/90 clip, plays off doubles well, fits his game well whether he's playing with role players or with all-stars, does more when he needs to and takes a step back when he needs to (because um, on most teams the best thing for a team's offense isn't the star player taking 30 shots a night), has been the centerpiece of great offensive teams for all his career and so on.

    Elgin on the other hand I'm not sure had that sort of an effect on his team's offenses, especially as the 60s progressed and he was shooting 2-3% below league average some years (while other perimeter players like West and Oscar were having no problem scoring on well above league fg%). Dude comes a lot off like a chucker, and based on what is said about his game, he played around the rim a lot which makes his inefficiency even more damning to me. I just don't see how he was helping his teams as much as Dirk. Whenever he would miss games, Lakers would often post their best records, in '65 when he got injured in the playoffs...they still went to the finals (but when West was injured in '67 playoffs, they got swept in the first round), there was no drop off with him out in '66 (change of .4 SRS over 16 games), their record was better without him in '70, then he retires and Lakers reel off the longest winning streak ever. To his credit in '62 he did seem to positively impact the team more in games he played than I thought (positive change of 4.5 on the SRS of teams when he played). And he has some really poor shooting post-seasons...I don't personally think he was fitting his game well alongside another star (like West and later, Wilt), nor was he as important to the success of his teams as much as people believe by looking at his raw stats.

    Other things Dirk has going for him? Durability. Won an MVP, put together one of the best playoff runs on route to a championship and finals MVP, led his teams to better records (Elgin in three seasons before Jerry West became "Jerry West" led teams to 33, 25 and 36 wins, never played on a team that won more than 55 games).

    I'm voting for Dirk.
    Last edited by Fatal9; 11-15-2011 at 02:12 PM.

  12. #27
    ISH's Negro Historian L.Kizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX -
    Posts
    41,029

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Wait, is McHale over Baylor and Dirk? Baylor for me though.

  13. #28
    Utah Jazz (6-6) Yung D-Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Jerry Sloan's Doghouse
    Posts
    11,264

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    We already did Pippen vs Mchale though...

  14. #29
    How does my Dirk taste creepingdeath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    3,883

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    Dirk, although Baylor at #13 would be too low, imo.

  15. #30
    Scott Hastings Fan G.O.A.T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Metro Detroit
    Posts
    5,379

    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

    The hard part for me is I can't justify Barkley or Malone over Baylor but they both feel like better players than Dirk. Dirk's title makes it tricky, sort of like Rick Barry's. They were all elite players at their peak, on the same level, but Barkley and Malone had Jordan in their way. This one is much harder for me than it seems like it is for the rest of you.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •