ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

[L.Kizzle]

Dirk was personally in my top 30 (I think a former MVP being ranked 55th, while having the type of career he had before even last year is laughable by the way).

I believe I had Dirk around mid to late 30s. And I also did agree, 55 was way too low.

Why has he shot up on a lot of people's list?

- There really isn't that big of a gap of between a player who is ranked 20th and a player who is ranked 30th on any random list. 20 might be a guy like Isiah (though he wouldn't for me) and 30 might be Drexler. 20 might be Barry, 30 might be Pippen. 20 might be Pettit, 30 might be Ewing. Now think about how people would perceive the guys who are "30" relative to the 20 if they won championship as the best player on their team (especially in a way Dirk did).

I agree, there might not be a big gap between 20 and 30 but we know who was better. There might not be a huge gap between Clyde and Zeke, but we all know and will most have Zeke ahead of Clyde.

- If you asked people before why they don't rank Dirk higher, the #1 response you would get is "he can't lead a team to a championship, too soft, he chokes during crucial moments". Dirk came out and answered THE biggest criticisms of his career. Like Kobe winning without Shaq, what it will be like if LeBron finally wins.When you answer the biggest question mark on your career like Dirk did, it's going to matter a lot.

That might be true, and Dirk deserved to move up. But after just one title? If Elgin Baylor had just one title, I don't think much would change. All the people in the top 15 have titles so it wouldn't really make that much of a difference. Now, if Baylor may have won 3 you're talking about jumping into the top 5 discussion. Same with Dirk, if he wins another or two, he has no choice but to be top 20. But now, what make him different from Dolph Scyahes? On the other hand, Elgin was the LeBron of his day except didn't disappear in the Finals (during his prime might I add ...)

Dirk has one title, Dave Cowens and Willis Reed have two titles, yet he's left them behind (they also have an MVP award.) Di

- Most active players don't see the respect they deserve on all-time lists due to the "they will be up there once their career is done" treatment. LeBron...two time MVP...top 10 player at his peak...putting up unbelievable numbers, carrying a team like the Cavs like maybe a couple of players in history could have done...already 7 elite years of never being injured...having accomplished more than people ranked in front of him all the while being better than them...isn't even top 25 according to ISH. Wade isn't good enough to be ranked over Cousy. Lot of people don't realize that some active players in midst of their careers are as good or better (or at the very least have an argument) as a lot of guys they tend to not be ranked over.

This is true about active players. And you might have just answered your own question about LeBron with Dirk and why he wasn't considered high on the list.

[Duncan21formvp]

Give me Dirk.

[brain drain]

Those two guys are not even on the same level.

Just jook at advanced stats:

PER:
Hondo's best PER's are around 20. Dirk's around 27-28.
Dirk's worst playoff PER would be Hondo's 3rd best.


Win Shares / 48 (playoffs):
Hondo's best year: around .208 or so.
Dirk? .275

Again, that's a completely different level.

Everything about Hondo's adv. stats screams "solid 2nd option, great 3rd option".

How anybody can take that guy over Dirk is beyond me.

[Gotterdammerung]

Those two guys are not even on the same level.

Just jook at advanced stats:

PER:
Hondo's best PER's are around 20. Dirk's around 27-28.
Dirk's worst playoff PER would be Hondo's 3rd best.


Win Shares / 48 (playoffs):
Hondo's best year: around .208 or so.
Dirk? .275

Again, that's a completely different level.

Everything about Hondo's adv. stats screams "solid 2nd option, great 3rd option".

How anybody can take that guy over Dirk is beyond me.

Wrong thread, genius.

[brain drain]

Wrong thread, genius.

OK, in that case here's the playoff PER comparison for Baylor - Nowitzki:

Baylor playoff PER:
Top 1 season: 28.0
Top 5 seasons: 25.94
top 10 seasons: 22.2


Nowitzki plaoff PER:
Top 1 season: 28.4
Top 5 seasons: 27.46
top 10 seasons: 25.4

So, it's a much better comparison than Nowitzki - Hondo, and they had a similar peak but Dirk's peak was clearly longer.

So it's Dirk for putting in more seasons close to his peak level.