Where do you guys typically rate Scottie Pippen as a player?

[Dragonyeuw]

Watching the past two finals, it's been very interesting to see Lebron's matchup (Leonard and Igudola) win finals MVPs and have success against Lebron on a big stage. Extrapolating that, it would have been interesting to see Pip against Lebron on the finals stage, seeing as Pip was every bit the defender those guys were( even better across the board), and a good enough scorer to make Lebron work on that end.

[3ball]

.
Stats versus X-man

87' Worthy WCF..... 31 on 60%
87'. X-man WCF..... 25 on 50% (prime x-man)

92' Pippen ECSF..... 16 on 40%
92' X-man ECSF...... 19 on 50% (old x-man)





^^^ Pippen's trashy play is the only reason the Bulls nearly lost that series

And this is standard - anytime a series was close or lost, Pippen's poor play was the reason because MJ never had a bad series.

Ultimately, pippen was never the #1 option on back-to-back champs like Worthy was in 87' and 88'.. but despite his inferior performance to Worthy, Pippen gets more credit because he was on the only 2-star dynasty and didn't share shine with 3rd and 4th stars like Worthy.. Pippen was simply the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

[3ball]

.
Pippen vs Reggie Lewis as #1 options in the playoffs


Playoffs

92' LEWIS..... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp


^^^ this is why I always say everyone was better than Pippen - everyone simply played much better than him!!

Worthy was 1st option on a back-to-back champion and FMVP... KJ averaged 23/5/11 in the upset of Magic's 1 seed, and then 28/4/9 against the champion Rockets in 94/95.

Otoh, Pippen's peak capability is 16-22 ppg, so guys like Robert Horry matched him with 18/10 on 50% in the 95' Finals - that's prime Pippen caliber - everyone achieved it... JR Smith averaged 18/8 on 60% in the 15' ECF - that's better than pippen ever played actually

[3ball]

.
Wade 2013 Finals......... 19.6 on 47%... 4.6 apg.. 2.2 turnovers (outscored opposing #1 option)
Pippen Career Finals.... 19.0 on 42%... 5.9 apg.. 3.3 turnovers


CONCLUSION - Wade's worst Finals ring > Pippen's average Finals ring

[zeerghit]

Atleast top 25

[HylianNightmare]

hes the best kind of number 2

[3ball]

I thought you said he sucked??

05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

I thought you said he sucked??

Playoffs

13' Wade..'.... 18.7 PER.. 3.0 bpm.. 1.0 vorp.. 0.108 ws/48
93' Pippen.... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 bpm.. 0.8 vorp.. 0.083 ws/48


Finals

13' Wade..........'..... 19.6 on 47% (outscored opposing #1 option)

96' Pippen............. 15.7 on 34%
97' Pippen............. 19.0 on 42%
98' Pippen............. 15.7 on 41%

Pippen 6 Finals.... 19.0 on 42%

Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat

Playoffs

14' Wade...'.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade...'.. 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg

[3ball]

PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185


OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107



WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129


Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250


Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250
Horace Grant......NR top 250


BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:

What players were most impacted by the changes?

Including playoffs, only one player saw his career BPM change by 3.0 or more. That'd be the aforementioned Stockton, who was 3.5 under the old system and is now 6.7. He's aided by the changes in the way the assist and rebound terms interact. Further, the old system said "no rebounds = bad defender." BPM 2.0 says "elite steals, good defensive teams = good defender."

When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[Micku]

The trolls overrate/underrate him, but honestly, where does he rank in history? Are the Bulls just as successful without him? Is he a franchise caliber player or just a REALLY good #2 like Bean was in 2000?

One of the best SFs in history when it's all said and done.

I think he could be a franchise player, but who knows really. Even being a second option, I don't think he was better at it than Magic in the early 80s. He was....better than Mchale in terms of impact with his defense and running the offense, but not in scoring. And Mchale wasn't that bad in defense either. But we don't know what Mchale could do at his peak. He wasn't better than West or Baylor as the 2nd option. He isn't better than Anthony Davis. Like he isn't the best second option in nba history. He certainly isn't the worst.

But I think Pippen could be a franchise player and push teams to the playoffs. I dunno about winning the championships. It depends on the team constructed. Put prime Pippen on the Pistons of the era of the bad boys or Pistons 04, they'll win and be great. And he probably would've been considered to be the best player on those teams. Prime Pippen on the 2000 Portland would've been nice too. But if he was just in charge of the 88 Bulls for example, I doubt they are winning that many games and he wouldn't win MVP.

The Bulls would have to find a replacement for him.But he was really the perfect for MJ on the wing. Because like MJ, he could do all the dirty work. He was very smart in defending. The thing he lacked was the scoring and creating his own shot. And MJ had to carry that load offensively. But they could've been successful with another player. But the question is, who? You had plenty of guys to choice from or randomly select anyone in NBA history. But realistically, they didn't have any option except in the late 90s when they thought about trading for T-Mac. But they had a chance to get Shawn Kemp. If they get Kemp, I feel like they are definitely winning. I dunno if that many.

Pippen I think was the best SF of the 90s. He was a great all around player. Although scoring wasn't his best asset. It was his defense and play making. And he might've been the best at his position in nba history to play defense.

With all that said, he ain't no the level of LeBron, Bird, Dr. J . And Dr. J was a second option as well too. So in terms of second options, he wasn't the best in nba history to me. And there is a clear tier between him and some other players imo. But he was the best second option of the 90s. It depends on the year. Like James Worthy was better for a couple of years, Joe Dumars, Brad Daugherty or Mark Price, or whatever. And Penny was great too in those short years. But Pippen was the usually the best consistently relatively to the era. He was actually better in the early 90s as oppose to the late 90s, but he is always solid and defense was there.

Like there are very few second options that could handle their own team in the 90s. We saw Kevin Johnson do it. Penny hold it down while Shaq was out. Clyde was still a stud with Hakeem, but wasn't his former self.

But in nba history? He ain't no Kobe, Magic, West, Baylor, Kareem, Dr. J, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Westbrook, James Harden, Oscar Robinson, Wade, Kawhi and etc. He isn't as good as those guys as the number 1 option or as the 2nd option to many of them. But he was still among the best in his era, which contributed a lot to the Bulls success.

[KobesFinger]

Jesus, imagine bumping a 5 year old thread to say things you say all the time 3ball is the same guy as he was back then

[GOBB]

Top 10 SF of all time
Top 10 point forwards of all time
Top 15 defensive player of all time
One of the top second fiddles of all time

[HoopsNY]

Just off the top of my head, there weren't many players from 1991-98 that were better.

Hakeem
Jordan
Shaq
Robinson
Barkley
Drexler
Malone
Penny
Hill
Ewing

Some may agree or disagree with this list, but it's safe to say that Pippen was somewhere in the top 11-15. The league had 300+ players. Yet Pippen "sucks." Good grief. Not to mention, Pippen had 7 All-NBA selections between 1991-98.

You cannot come to any other conclusion that he was one of the elite players in the game at the time. Between 1991-96, he was definitely top 10.

[Jasper]

I put Pip easily one of top 10 defensive players of all time if not top 5.
He took 90% + the toughest player on the court when he walked on the floor.
(stopping , and reducing are two words people don't look at on the defensive end , but Pip reduced most players
he played against , and that alone had many wins in the Bulls 72 win season.

[hateraid]

Lol, 3ball hates LeBron so much he bumped a 5 year old thread. Hilarious

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol, 3ball hates LeBron so much he bumped a 5 year old thread. Hilarious

I can't tell who he hates more, LeBron or Pippen. He's devoted 30,000 posts to talking about those two guys