Scottie Pippen appreciation thread.

[kizut1659]

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .

[hitmanyr2k]

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .

Significantly less mileage?!? So someone that plays damn near 200 playoff games, two Olympics, goes through countless surgeries on his ankles, knees, foot, and back (had his 2nd back surgery after the '98 Finals) suddenly has "significantly" less mileage?

[hitmanyr2k]

This is such a retarded thing to say.

A team does not win 6 championships and set a record for wins in a season with just one "superstar." The year after Michael retired the first time, The Bulls went 55-27 and lost in 7 games to the Knicks in the 2nd round.

I didn't see Kobe doing that when Shaq or Pau weren't there, or Wade doing it without Shaq. I didn't see Pierce doing it before KG and Ray Allen were there.

Sometimes - I know this is hard to believe for people who believe everything Nike and Gatorade and ESPN tell them - there can be two or more players of equal importance to a championship team.

The Bulls are arguably the GREATEST DYNASTY in sports history. WTF does sidekick even mean??? Its just a dumb term that you've heard so you repeat it. Try actually thinking some time.

Agreed

Without their "sidekicks" all of those "superstars" are jack sh**. They would be doing the same thing Lebron was doing...putting up pretty numbers and going out in the first or second round. The only players I'll give a pass to are Duncan (for 2003) and Hakeem (for 1994). They won a title without legit all-star help.

[kizut1659]

Significantly less mileage?!? So someone that plays damn near 200 playoff games, two Olympics, goes through countless surgeries on his ankles, knees, foot, and back (had his 2nd back surgery after the '98 Finals) suddenly has "significantly" less mileage?

Well, from 1987 through 1998 Pippen played approximately 37,000 total regular season + playoff minutes. Kobe has played so far 45,000 total minutes. Maybe "significant" is not the best choice of words but the bottom line is that Pippen should not have dropped off as precipitously as he did. In terms of surgeries, Pippen did have that back surgery but noone expected him to become a role player in 1999 so it could not have been that much of a deal. As for 2 Olympics - yeah, I am sure 1992 Olympics with the Dream Team really tired Pippen out.

[Fuhqueue]

He was not an untalented scorer but he was definitely predisposed more towards facilitating. His instinct was to generate the best shot for the offense, not imposing his will on the game and carrying the scoring load. That was his psychology and his skill set, and ofc it provided the best value to the team for him to play like that because of his partner in crime. Most of all Pippen always impressed me with his cerebral playing style and ball IQ, filling in the blanks wherever needed and conducting the flow of the game. Knew exactly how to deploy his talents to be incredibly influential and versatile on both sides of the floor. His all-around game was a beautiful thing to behold. Pip

[97 bulls]

Before I start, id like to note how much hatred ive read in some of these posts. This is supposed to be an appreciation thread. But im reading things like "sidekick", "overrated", "not a leader", even "overrated defender". Just sad.

Anyways, I feel pippen along with being arguably the best perimeter defender ever, the best all-around player ever, a Six time nba champion, etc is the most underappreciated player ever. This man sacrificed his whole career in the name of winning. Dominated defensivly like a great defensive center, but from the forward position. And his skillset is unmatched in todays game. If we were to compare him today, id say the best similarity is lebron james. And I rank him in the top 20 all-time. Definately one of the greatest ever.

[Ne 1]

kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .

The press loved to sing long songs about Jordan made Pippen. However, their songs are missing a few verses. For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?

Furthermore, when deciding to retire, Jordan said over and over that he would not play without Pippen. While recovering from foot
surgery in December of 1997, Pippen said that he was not going to play with the Bulls when he was fully recovered. Jordan said that if he had known this, he would not have come back. Why? If Jordan makes everyone so much better, why not fill in Scott Burrell into Pippen

[Kurosawa0]

It makes you wonder who made who a better ball player, or at least who was the most valuable player to the win-loss column.

Come on. Pippen wouldn't even remotely say he was more valuable. He was Jordan's #1 cheerleader (Well, he and Barkley.)

[OldSchoolBBall]

For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?

Pippen's 1992 season with Jordan was at least on par with his 1994 season, so that's just wrong. Plus, Pippen was entering his prime in 1994 anyway (age 28, when most players hit their peak in general), so that's expected.

Answer: Jordan didn’t make Pippen. Pippen made Pippen. Without Jordan, he is still the dominating defensive player, and he continues to be a complete player.

This is nonsense. Pippen does NOT become the same type of defensive and all-around player without Jordan's tutelage and without competing against him every day and pushing him. You're deluded if you think he'd be the exact same player in every respect had he not played with MJ. He might have still bee a great player (he had the physical tools, IQ, and work ethic, after all), but he wouldn't have been as great as he was on both ends. Like I've always said, it's not a coincidence that one of the greatest all-around players and best defenders of all time (Pippen) just happened to play with another of the best all-around players and defenders of all time (Jordan).

Think about it: Jordan never had a winning record apart from Pippen. Pippen played on many playoff teams in Portland and Houston without Jordan.

Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real. It's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen. Jordan only had his ROOKIE year and then 1987 to "prove" himself before Pippen was on the team. In '85 he was a rookie yet still led the Bulls to a substantial improvement and had one of the best rookie seasons in history. In '87 he had possibly the worst supporting cast in history (especially relative to the league) yet still won 40 games -- and he had to average 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins to do it. That team was garbage outside of MJ.

So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly? As I've already noted, he won 50 games with a rookie Pippen, which, to any sane person (note: this excludes you), proves that he could have at least had a winning record with a decent team around him. Even in '88 his team was no great shakes, yet he won 50 games. But yeah, I'm sure it was 7 pt/4 reb foul-prone Pippen who was the reason for those wins!

It makes you wonder who made who a better ball player, or at least who was the most valuable player to the win-loss column.

It doesn't make any sane person wonder about those things, I'll tell you that much.

[Roundball_Rock]

Come on. Pippen wouldn't even remotely say he was more valuable. He was Jordan's #1 cheerleader (Well, he and Barkley.)

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.

So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly?

Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.

t's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen.

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

[Kurosawa0]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.

Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate anymore than Chauncey Billups was one. His name might have been mentioned, but he was never seriously going to win the award.

I love how building up Pippen is now seen as the cool thing as long as it tarnishes Jordan.

Listen, those of us that actually watched the game back then will tell you, Pippen was a sidekick. He was a great, great player. One of the top 30 in league history, but that team lived and breathed Michael Jordan. He was it.

[magnax1]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.



Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.



Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

That's mostly true, but the fact is that pretty much every top 20 player played with a player as good, or better then Pippen. Jordan was not any luckier then any top 10 player probably much less lucky then any other top 5 player.

[Duncan21formvp]

Yes, and who was Pippen's #1 cheerleader? Jordan, who called Pippen the best player in the league in 95' and was pushing for Pippen to be MVP in 96'.

at this "sidekick" label. "Sidekicks" are not legit MVP candidates.



Jordan failed to elevate his teams to a winning record until his fourth season. That is awful compared to every other top-tier great. Why is the "clear GOAT" the one guy who is the exception? Practically everyone else took their (usually crappy team, remember, bad teams get high draft picks) to at least the conference finals within 3 years while MJ could not even get out the first round.



Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...

Maybe it had something to do with inheriting a losing franchise and playing in the 80's at the same time. Fact is, MJ was 2nd in the league in WS in 1985 and #1 in 1987 meaning no other player in the league produces more wins than he did on those teams. Only Bird in 1985 and no in 1987.


Kareem on the Bucks goes from the best record in the league in 1974 to not even making the playoffs the next year once Oscar left. And then he gets traded the following year to LA and his former team makes the playoffs when they didn't in his last year there and then the new team he goes to doesn't make the playoffs. Remember we are talking about prime Kareem here not some guy in his mid 30's

[G.O.A.T]

Some people will never understand.

The reason Pippen was so great is because he understood his limitations and accepted a role that allowed him to focus on his strengths.

Why can't he just be the great player he was?

Why do people need to pretend he was something he wasn't?

HE WAS A SIDEKICK AND THAT'S NOT AN INSULT.

You know who else were sidekicks, Kareem, Magic, Jerry West, Kobe, John Havlicek...etc.

You can be a great player and be a sidekick.

[1987_Lakers]

Calling Pippen top 20 of all time is a reach. Top 25-30 seems about right.