Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

[oolalaa]

I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe he was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.

Firstly, Kevin McHale was a power forward!!

Secondly, i like Chet Walker aswell - i think he has a decent case for the HOF - but he wasn't in Cunninghams class offensively.

[La Frescobaldi]

I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc

Kiki was a gun. His D was never real high quality, lotta guys got into shootouts with him.
Kiki could really drive early on in his career. He was a real slasher but then he hurt his back about midway through his career, so he changed his style into a bomber. He played in the early era of the 3 point line when strategy was real confused.

It was the offensive plan for 40 years that you get the ball into the paint to score. The 3 point line left coaches groping for a plan because although guys all the way back to Bill Sharman in the 50s were taking 25 foot shots, they were usually done on the flat run in a transition game. They'd do bombs away on a fast break while the center or a big forward crashed into the paint for the putback.

Kiki tho.... to me he understood what that 3 point line was doing to the game maybe before some other guys... and being a good shot, he took advantage of it sooner.

Other thing about VandeWeghe is - he didn't invent the Dirk one foot fadeaway jumper - guys like Don Ohl, Lou Hudson & Wali Jones were dropping lots of them in the 60s - but he sure did perfect it. His fadeaway was money

Coaches at all levels teach the Kiki jab step & you see it everywhere today.
This is real primitive compared to Kiki but it's the idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FffYX2sPaPc


Here's a little clip of Kiki's fadeaway exactly copied by Carmelo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB0CFX8p7VM

[bizil]

I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe he was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.

McHale was a PF not SF. I was talking about my view on SF's in that post. In terms of PF, McHale is a top 6-7 GOAT PF of all time. McHale gets mad props from me always!

[JellyBean]

Overrated? If anything, Big Game James was underrated. I mean from 1985-86 through 1991-92, his lowest PPG total was 19.4 and his highest was 21.4. He was a very efficient scorer, solid defender, and an underrated passer. I don't see how he could be overrated.

[bizil]

I think Worthy is underrated for his ablity to be an alpha dog scorer. It was clear to me Worthy was on that level at his best. He was on a team though that had guys like Magic, Kareem, McAdoo, Wilkes, Scott, etc. at different times. But as the years went on, James got the Finals MVP and led the Lakers in scoring for a season. The thing is when u got Magic, Kareem,and Worthy as your top three options, u have three alpha dog type guys. I would say Kareem at his best would be the number one option though. But an alpha dog in an alpha dog, and the Lakers had the fortune to have three.

But I feel Worthy is also overrated at times in terms of his career to other premier SF's. Team accolades definitely add to a player's legacy and rightfully so. But in my book, Nique and Bernard King are better players than Worthy. For Worthy to get on the 50 greatest list, but not have Nique is fishy to me. It would be the equivalent damn near of having McHale on the list but not having Malone or Barkley due to rings.

Not saying Worthy doesn't deserve 50 greatest, but to say he's a better player than Nique or King simply due to rings doesn't add up. This is the view of many when comparing Worthy to Nique and a Bernard King. So in that sense Worthy is overrated at times. The glow of Showtime definitely made him even more formidable when looking at his legacy. I actually blame the media and many of the former players (in particular the guys from the 50's and 60's) for this instead of many knowledgable fans like us on here. The 50 greatest and lists like that are media and former player driven.

What's puzzling to me about Nique is he was a household name and made the L a lot of money. And on top of it, he was one of the most prolific scorers of all time. For him not to make the Dream Team, 50 greatest, or first ballot HOFer makes him the most underrated superstar (for a guy who was a superstar on the court in terms of numbers and a superstar in terms of ratings, ticket sales, etc.) possibly ever.

[jlauber]

That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??

Dantley was a product of his era.

And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.

[La Frescobaldi]

And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.

Chamberlain was the ultimate scorer. Easily.

[jlauber]

Chamberlain was the ultimate scorer. Easily.

I guess I should have worded it along the lines that Dantley was AMONG the ULTIMATE scorers. 30 ppg on .560+ FG% and .850 from the line.

Chamberlain, MJ, Kareem, and McAdoo were also be in the category of explosive, efficient scorers, and UNSTOPPABLE scorers.

[monkeypox]

The only player to ever win an MVP with Michael Jordan as a teammate!

[jlauber]

Like I said, I can't claim to be an expert on Dantley's game with Utah, but are you sure he was past his prime when he went to Detroit?

You just mentioned his scoring going down, but isn't that to be expected when going to a better team? Particularly a team like Detroit with so many weapons?

1985-1986 w/ Utah- 29.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3 TO, 56.3 FG%, 62.9 TS%, 36.1 mpg (29 years old)
1986-1987 w/ Detroit- 21.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2 apg, 2.2 TO, 53.4 FG%, 61.4 TS%, 33.8 mpg (30 years old)

He played less minutes with Detroit and dropped from 19.1 FGA to 13.9 FGA.

In '88, Detroit was 54-28 overall, 44-25 with Dantley and 13-6 when Dantley came off the bench. A 10-3 record without him is pretty damn good.

Detroit was 30-12 with Dantley in '89, but 30-6 with Mark Aguirre and 28-4 with Aguirre starting.

Dallas was also better with Dantley than Aguirre. The Mavs went 25-19 with Aguirre and 11-20 with Dantley, 9-16 when Dantley started.

And speaking of Dantley's scoring falling off when he went to Detroit, well Mark Aguirre was 29 in 1989. And he went from 21.7 ppg with Dallas in 34.8 mpg to 15.5 ppg in 29.7 mpg with Detroit.

So while I'm not making a statement one way or the other, there is evidence to suggest that Dantley's impact wasn't half as big as the stats suggest. The knock on him from everything I've heard was that he was a black hole who held the ball for an extremely long time to get his shot. I thought he was impressive with Detroit, but I have my doubts that a contending team was ever going to have him averaging 30.

I would agree that Detroit would've won in '89 with him, though.

I really can't argue with any of the above except to say that a prime Dantley was mired on poor teams. And, as I mentioned in a post above, his overall impact may have not been as much as a 30 ppg .560 shooter should have been,...perhaps because of poor defense and rebounding...but I still say that he was among the most unstoppable offensive players of all-time. It was truly remarkable that a 6-5 (or less) player, at around 210 lbs, and with really no range over 15 ft, could so thoroughly dominate opposing defenders and defenses. 30 ppg, .560 FG%, .850 FT%...just amazing.

[oolalaa]

And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.

1. His '88 piston team? HIS 88' PISTON TEAM?? you don't really mean that do you? You know Isiah was the leader and best player of those mid to late 80s pistons teams right? RIGHT??

2. Not sure he played on crappy teams throughout his career. He played with Kareem, Jamaal Wilkes and Norm Nixon in L.A. He played with a prime Darell Griffith (good SG before his injuries), Rickey Green (decent point guard), John Drew (when he wasn't injured), Thurl Bailey (ok centre), a young Stockton and a rookie Karl Malone in Utah. He played with Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer and Rodman in Detroit. He played with Mark Aguirre in Dallas.

He obviously had some very average teammates in his prime but he clearly had no ability to raise his their level of play either. He wasn't a leader and ive heard that he was a bit of an arsehole to boot (supposedly the reason he left Detroit).

3. He was one of the most unstoppable scorers of all time. A distinction should be made between offense and scoring.

4. If you do think that Dantley was one of the greatest offensive players of all time then surely you must think very highly of Alex English and Bernard king as well...

Englishs best 4 scoring seasons were - 28.4 ppg on 52%, 27.9 ppg on 52%, 29.8 ppg on 50% and 28.6 ppg on 50%. Impressive stuff right?

Kings 2 best seasons before his injury were - 26.3 ppg on 57% and 32.9 ppg on 53%. holy moly!

5. His overall team impact was beyond questionable. His scoring had almost no impact on his teams results. Like i said - HE WAS A PRODUCT OF HIS ERA. Teams were scoring a tonne of points in the early 80s.

But back to the topic? Was he better than Worthy?

[oolalaa]

I guess I should have worded it along the lines that Dantley was AMONG the ULTIMATE scorers. 30 ppg on .560+ FG% and .850 from the line.

Chamberlain, MJ, Kareem, and McAdoo were also be in the category of explosive, efficient scorers, and UNSTOPPABLE scorers.

Don't forget George Gervin, Bernard King & Shaq

[Kovach]

Anybody have Worthy's numbers from 1986-1991 in the games Magic didn't play in?

22.8 ppg on 57.3 fg%, not taking into account the final game of the 86 season when the team was resting for the playoffs (in which he dropped 15 points in 20 minutes) and his 35 point Nov 89 game against Phoenix in which Magic got ejected after 3 minutes into the game for brawling with KJ.

Also, "prime" (89-91) Worthy without Magic is at about 29 ppg.

[Kovach]

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

Kind of how you are ignoring that he was plagued by injuries in 92 and also the psychological impact that Magic's sudden, pre-early retirement and what caused it might have had on him and his game, right?

[Kovach]

I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.

OR, he puts similar numbers to Worthy due to playing next to 3 20 ppg guys, in addition to not being as good defensively and possibly causing more damage then good to the Showtime team play due to his ego?