MJ has a perfect playoff record

[LAZERUSS]

they lost in the 2nd round and were a play away from being down 0-3 before the once-in-a-lifetime shot.

those are the facts.

2nd round loser is nowhere near a title contending team and you know it - you're just a fool thinking you can convince anyone otherwise.

There is a HUGE difference in losing a game seven in the ECSF's, in series in which they outplayed the Knicks...and then that same NY team barely loses a game seven in the Finals to a 58-24 Rockets team...


than the '95 Bulls, with Jordan, who were beaten 4-2 in the ECSF's, by a team that would get SWEPT in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team...

THAT is FOR SURE.

The '94 Bulls were legitimate TITLE-CONTENDERS.

The '95 Bulls, with Jordan but without a DOMINATING PF...just an ordinary second round loser.

[ScalsFan21]

We're only considering seasons where MJ was with the team for a full season - seasons where he was playing another sport altogether for most of the year don't count.

And the only reason the Magic won was due to Jordan's rust, as evidenced by his ridiculously low PER of 22.1 (same as his Wizard days), 109 ORtg (11 points less than his career average), and 0.167 ws/48 (barely half his career average of 0.274).

However, the most obvious evidence of Jordan's rust was his uncharacteristic TO's in the clutch.. MJ turned the ball over twice on final possessions in the Orlando series - he's only done that 1 other time in his entire career!!!.. Anyone who watched him in the clutch vs. Orlando realized he wasn't the same player.. Even his normal confident swagger was missing.. You were kind of scratching your head like, "is that the same guy?"

I wasn't disputing any of this. I agree that clearly Jordan was not himself in that series, but I've seen plenty of revisionist history from MJ fans about how "once Jordan won, he never stopped winning" (outside of the Wiz years). Which isn't technically factual. And I get it, realistically when he had an all-time stacked supporting cast around him PLUS a full season of preparation, he did never lose. There is no 2004 Finals, no 2011 Finals on Michael's resume and there never will be. Can't argue with that.

As an MJ hater I'd agree that '95 was not Jordan at his best, but to claim him to have a "perfect playoff record" is arguably more biased than anything I've seen on this board.

[LAZERUSS]

REALITY...

without Pippen and Grant...the Bulls were a losing team that was first round cannon-fodder.

With part-timers Pippen and Grant...IMMEDIATELY a 50-32 team, and a second round team.

With a dominating Pippen and Grant...THREE-TIME champions.

Without Jordan...and now with just Pippen and Grant (and Pete Myers), a 55-27 team that would surely have won 60+ games had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games...and likely a champion with HCA.

With Jordan, and Pippen, BUT without a DOMINATING PF...an ordinary second round loser.

Give Jordan a 55 win roster, and add HOFer Rodman...and guess what...three straight more titles.

Now, you tell me just how good MJ's supporting casts were.

[dankok8]

The OP is infatuated with Jordan and LAZERUSS admittedly was harsh to MJ in his latest post but whoever tries to argue that Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast is kidding themselves.

Pippen was the best 2nd option for all of the Bulls titles. Guys like James Worthy, Cliff Robinson, KJ, Gary Payton, and John Stockton when they faced the Bulls in the Finals weren't as good as Pippen. In 1994 when MJ retired, Pippen was either the 6th of 7th best player in the league. I am taking Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, and Malone over Pippen. And probably Ewing too but that's debatable.

Everyone needs help to win titles, lots of help. Jordan included.

[LAZERUSS]

The OP is infatuated with Jordan and LAZERUSS admittedly was harsh to MJ in his latest post but whoever tries to argue that Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast is kidding themselves.

Pippen was the best 2nd option for all of the Bulls titles. Guys like James Worthy, Cliff Robinson, KJ, Gary Payton, and John Stockton when they faced the Bulls in the Finals weren't as good as Pippen. In 1994 when MJ retired, Pippen was either the 6th of 7th best player in the league. I am taking Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, and Malone over Pippen. And probably Ewing too but that's debatable.

Everyone needs help to win titles, lots of help. Jordan included.

Jordan was the KEY player in his six title runs. Only a complete idiot would claim otherwise. But, as you stated...he had a TON of help along the way.

A Jordan in his highest scoring season, was swept in the first round. An MJ with two relatively green, but very good players in Pippen and Grant...were blown out in the second round in a season in which MJ averaged 35 ppg on a .535 FG%. And with green starters, his Bulls were beaten 4-2 in the ECF's in a season in which he averaged 33-8-8 .538.

So, what happened in '90, when Pippen and Grant became stars? Then from '91 thru '93? Clearly, it was NOT Jordan ELEVATING his play. It was because his supporting casts were elevating THEIR's.

They were good enough to go 55-27 without him. No one in their right mind would claim that he didn't have a TON of help. If he didn't need a TON of help...what happened from '85 thru '87? And without his best players playing extremely well, what happened from '88 thru '90?

[sdot_thadon]

LAZERUSS by annihilation.
/thread

[3ball]

.
[COLOR="red"]The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993:[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR]PPG.......MPG

[COLOR="blue"]Jordan............32.6...... 39.3
Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4[/COLOR]
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 team only had 4 guys (Jordan/Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.
.

[sdot_thadon]

I

yeah you're a real credible source - you're one of the biggest 3ball haters on ISH

I don't hate you bro, I hate ****ing stupidity but if the shoes fits my man have at it.

***and make no mistake he murked your ass.

[LAZERUSS]

I get so sick-and-tired of these daily "anti-Lebron" topics.

Supposedly MJ would have carried the pathetic '07 Cavs to a title. Or the '09 Cavs, who quite frankly WAY over-achieved (and with Lebron hanging a 39-8-8 ECF's.) Or that MJ would have won in '15. Yeah, right. When Jordan had the same amount of help that Lebron had in the '15 Finals, in his '87 series against a 59-23 Celtic team that was in no way better than the '15 Warriors...his team was swept, and in a series in which he shot .417 from the field. I'm supposed to believe that Jordan, who couldn't get a win against a worse team, and with equal help, is going to better than Lebron getting two wins, and two close losses against a stacked Warrior team, and with JR Smith as his second best player?

A prime Jordan likely would have won in '11. He certainly couldn't have defended the entire Spurs team in '14 (the rest of the Heat were bystanders in that series), so no way he wins in '14 either.

MJ > Lebron. No question. But not NEARLY enough to take the '07 Cavs, or the '09 Cavs, or the '14 Heat, or the '15 Cavs to a title.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS by annihilation.
/thread

Oh, he'll be back with page-after-page of the same rehashed shit he has posted countless times, and which has been debunked by more than just myself here.

But, you can be sure it is coming...

[LAZERUSS]

Supposedly Pippen and Grant were easily replaceable, but no mention of Pete Myers replacing MJ and the Bulls still going 55-27.

[3ball]

[COLOR="Red"]Jordan was the KEY player in his six title runs.[/COLOR] Only a complete idiot would claim otherwise. But, as you stated...he had a TON of help along the way.

There - you just said MJ's the goat - no one in history was the key player on that many title runs.

you're done.. take this L

A Jordan in his highest scoring season, was swept in the first round. An MJ [COLOR="Red"]with two relatively green, but very good players in Pippen and Grant[/COLOR]...were blown out in the second round in a season in which MJ averaged 35 ppg on a .535 FG%. And with green starters, his Bulls were beaten 4-2 in the ECF's in a season in which he averaged 33-8-8 .538.

Pippen and Grant were not good players as rookies in 1988 - you're telling outright lies here, as usual.

Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 ppg in 20 minutes, while Grant averaged 8/6 in 22 minutes.. Those numbers are easily replaceable - they had little to do with the Bulls win totals that year.

The real key in 1988 was JORDAN'S IMPROVEMENT - he added GOAT defense to his league-leading scoring by garnering DPOY, and also league MVP.

Obviously, it was Jordan's growth into the GOAT two-way player and league MVP that made the Bulls better.

So, what happened in '90, when Pippen [COLOR="Red"]and Grant became stars[/COLOR]?

Grant was never a star - during his best years alongside Jordan (1991-1993), he averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs..

He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and a simple dunker.. He was never an all-star and only made ONE 2nd team all-defense while on the Bulls..

He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Half the league's 3rd options were better than him - we can go through and list them player for player and stat-for-stat - it's not even close - Grant was as ordinary as they come.

Jordan needed a dominating, elite PF to win

This is factually incorrect - if a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Grant's ordinary play and stats were described above - compare him to fellow play-finisher and statistical peer, Tristan Thompson.

As for Rodman - during his time on the Bulls, he was 34-36 years old and he wasn't an all-star either (he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992) - nor did Rodman make the all-defense team in 1997 or 1998.. So similar to the first 3-peat, MJ won his second 3-peat without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF as well.

Rodman only averaged 4/8 in the 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. He wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs or Finals - Phil benched him for bad play... Rodman's last good year was 1996 - by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed-up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating.

So, what happened in '90, when Pippen became a star? Then from '91 thru '93? [COLOR="Red"]Clearly, it was NOT Jordan ELEVATING his play[/COLOR]. It was because his supporting casts were elevating THEIR's.

More lies - no player in history elevated his play more than Jordan did in 1991-1993 playoffs and Finals - the stats prove it:

Jordan averaged 34/6/7 during 1991-1993 playoffs, which was better than his RS averages of 31/6/6...

In the Finals, he elevated his play even more - he averaged 36/7/8 in 1991-1993 Finals.. And we all remember his destruction of top 5 player Magic Johnson in 1991 Finals..... the famous shrug and record 6 threes in 1992 Finals.... and his record 41/9/6 on 51% in 1993 Finals.

No one in history ever played anywhere NEAR this well while winning championships.. So stfu with your blatant lies about MJ didn't elevate his game - you couldn't be more wrong.

Furthermore, Jordan also averaged at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their careers (except two when MJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg more) - no one in history did so much more than their 2nd option.

They were good enough to go 55-27 without him in regular season.

That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat strategy, know-how and execution on both sides of the ball.. Imagine if the Warriors win the ring the next two years, giving them a 3-peat - if Curry retires in 2018, the Warriors easily win 55.

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition season compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him - those are the facts.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

he had a TON of help along the way.

[COLOR="darkred"]The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993 (excluding MJ) - this was MJ's supporting cast in 1993:[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR]PPG.......MPG

[COLOR="blue"]Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4[/COLOR]
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


The 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.

[COLOR="Red"]If he didn't need a TON of help[/COLOR]...what happened from '85 thru '87? And without his best players playing extremely well, what happened from '88 thru '90?

Jordan had less help than anyone he's compared to - Horace Grant was worse than half the league's 3rd options...

And Jordan's #4 thru #12 guys were literally the worst in the league (shown above).

So those are the facts.... Take this L (again)

Btw, during Jordan's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998), Pippen's playoff averages were 17/7/5 on 40%... That's a HORRIBLE 2nd option... Pippen was not a top ten 2nd option during 2nd three-peat.

[Wade's Rings]

Oh, he'll be back with page-after-page of the same rehashed shit he has posted countless times, and which has been debunked by more than just myself here.

But, you can be sure it is coming...

I've seen 3ball kill you a couple timea on here, as recently as last week or so.

[Height Freak]

In '98 the Bulls were considered underdogs against the Jazz.

By the public opinion and mass media, but the true basketball insiders actually thought the opposite.

[3ball]

By the public opinion and mass media, but the true basketball insiders actually thought the opposite.

True, but look how little help Jordan had:

[COLOR="Navy"]PIPPEN IN 1998 FINALS[/COLOR]: he was injured and only had 15 ppg on 41%, including 8 and 6 points in last 2 games... this is less than Mosgov's 14/8 on 55% in 2015 Finals

[COLOR="Navy"]RODMAN IN 1998 FINALS[/COLOR]: wasn't even a starter and averaged 4/8 on 40%.. this is FAR less than Tristan Thompson's 10/13 on 50%.

Indeed - MJ had less help in 1998 Finals than Lebron had in 2015 Finals.. But the difference was that MJ played great defense - he didn't let Byron Russell become > Karl Malone, otherwise the Bulls would've lost just like the Cavs did to Warriors when Lebron let Iggy be > Curry..

Furthermore, MJ never shot 39% against single-coverage like Lebron did, and MJ came through massively in the 4th quarter and clutch.