Lebron "had no help" in Cleveland

[Wade's Rings]

2007 vs Pistons
- Game 5, you have to admit was all LeBron. but what about the other games?
- the Cavs defense shut down the Pistons to 86 ppg for the series after 96 ppg in the season. A 10 ppg decrease
- Game 1 - Lebron 10 pts on 33%, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 2 - LeBron 19 pts on 37%, 6 assist to 7 turnovers, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 6 - LeBron 20 pts on 27%, Gibson drops 31-6-2 on 78%, and Cavs shut down Pistons to 82 points on 36% shooting to send them to the Finals

2007 vs Spurs
- Spurs averaged 98.5 ppg in regular season, Cavs defense held them to 86.5 ppg. Spurs had a 12 ppg decrease against Cavs defense.
- Cavs defense hold Duncan to 45% shooting after 55% in regular season.
- Game 1 - Lebron 14 pts on 25% shooting, 7 rebs and 4 assist to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 9
- Game 3 - Lebron 25 pts on 39%, 7 ast to 5 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 3 as Lebron missed game-tying 3
- Game 4 - 24 pts on 30 shots (33% shooting), 10 ast to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 1 as Lebron goes 2/6 from the FT line.

2008 vs Celtics
- Cavs defense shut down Celtics to 84 ppg for the ECSF after they averaged 100 ppg in the regular season. Celtics had a 16 ppg decrease against Cavs defense
- Game 1 - Lebron 2/18 shooting with 10 turnovers. In the 4th quarter, he had 1-8 FG, 0 FT, 2 points, and went 0/4 FG in the final minute including a missed game tying shot attempt with 10 seconds left. Cavs only lose by 4 after being forced to foul. "Never had any help"
- Game 3 - Lebron 21-5-8 on 31% shooting, Delonte West has 21-5-7 on 64% shooting, and Celtics get shut down to 84 points by Cavs defense.
- Game 4 - Lebron 35% shooting and Cavs still get the win because the Cavs defense shuts down Celtics to 77 points on 39% shooting
- Game 6 - Lebron 39% shooting and 6 assists to 8 turnovers. Cavs still win because their defense shut down Boston to 69 points
Boston averaged 100 ppg in the regular season and the Cavs defense never let the Celtics reach 100 points once in the 7 game series. "LeBron did it all by himself"
- Game 7 - Lebron has a great game of 45-5-6-2 on 48%. Too bad his overrated defense got exposed and cost them the game as he allowed Pierce to drop 41-4-5-2 on 57% and send him home. This was the only time that LeBron consistently guarded Pierce in the series, and was lit up as expected.

2010 vs Celtics
- Cavs are up 2-1, then in the next 3 games combined Lebron averages 34% shooting with 8 assists to 6 turnovers a game, and the Cavs go 0-3 and get sent home
"LeBron always showed up in every single game. He is never to blame"

Lebron fans love to mention the Cavs going from 61 to 19 wins after LeBron left, but they never mention the injuries to Williams, Jamison, and Varejao for large portions of the season, as well as Shaq and Ilgauskus leaving and the Cavs bringing in a new coach. Half the team was gone or injured.

The Cavs had a top 10 defense every year from 2005/06 to 2009/10. After all those pieces were injured or left, the Cavs fell to a top 10 worst defense in the league. Sorry, but LeBron by himself isn't responsible for all of the Cavs' success. Especially since now, he rejoined the Cavs and they have a not top 10 ppg allowed defense and top 10 worst Drtg as of the 2015 All-star break.

GOATs gonna GOAT

Inb4 negging by Lebron stans

[SourSamCassell]

They were losing madly before any injuries in 2010-2011

[Budadiiii]

FINALLY the myth has been put to rest.

lol @ "dragging a team to the finals" ... its the other way around. He's been carried his entire career.

[LEFT4DEAD]

[Trollsmasher]

This post is all about LeBron. I am yet to see that mythical help, OP.

[navy]

lol all this did was post stats not help. It also completely ignores that Lebron was the best defender on those top rated Cavs teams.Also, Im not sure why people think injuries are what did in that Cavs team, they were terrible all time bad to start before injuries took place and more role players wouldn't have changed them from being a lottery team....

[chazzy]

lol all this did was post stats not help. It also completely ignores that Lebron was the best defender on those top rated Cavs teams.Also, Im not sure why people think injuries are what did in that Cavs team, they were terrible all time bad to start before injuries took place and more role players wouldn't have changed them from being a lottery team....

07 Lebron was not a great defender

[Ne 1]

FINALLY the myth has been put to rest.

lol @ "dragging a team to the finals" ... its the other way around. He's been carried his entire career.

This. People always forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).

[TheMarkMadsen]

07 Lebron was not a great defender

Exactly Lebron wasn't even making all defensive teams until 09

[Wade's Rings]

They were losing madly before any injuries in 2010-2011

Agree on that.

[Simple Jack]

A few things:

1. I don't think there was any debate about whether they were a good defensive team or not. What was argued however, and correctly, was that they weren't a talented team (either offensively or defensively). Talent isn't the same thing as chemistry....and they certainly had amazing chemistry. There isn't many players on that team, in those years (if any at all), that you'd be begging to have on your team for their defensive presence. It was a team effort, led by LeBron in 2009 and 2010.

2. So basically the games where LeBron played like absolute shit, they lost...and this is somehow proof of him being carried? And the games where he shot poorly but still put up good numbers, they won some, and lost some? And this is a surprise? LeBron was always commended for contributing to the game even if his shot wasn't falling...that's always been a positive about his game. And if we're ragging on players winning when they shoot poorly...are Kobe fans really the guys who should be emphasizing this point? Really?

3. You mention the drop-off after LeBron left and the injuries they suffered...but you fail to mention that i their 66 win season, a bunch of those guys missed substantial time as well (some at the same time). Shaq, Mo, Delonte, Z, etc...All those guys missed time, and the Cavaliers didn't miss a step. They were like 12-0 when Mo was out and beat some great teams during that stretch. None of those guys being injured had any effect on the team whatsoever. When Bron was out though, they lost nearly every single game (I think one season was like 0-8 iirc).


The Cavaliers won 66 games. 39-2 at home (1 shy of the NBA record for home-record set by the Celtics in the mid 80's). The second best player was Mo Williams. It would help to take a look at the comparable teams, throughout NBA history, that won at the rate that those Cavalier teams were winning at - and compare the talent. Those Cavalier teams, specifically the 66 win year, but also the 61 win year, were easily towards the very bottom in terms of talent, relative to other historical teams that were able to win at that rate.


A post by Kblaze on the topic that's especially relevant:

By the standards of teams to do what they did...he had perhaps the worst team in nba history in 09. something I dont feel like re explaining so I found what I said about them at the time when people brought up how talented they were claiming their defense made them more talented than they were said to be:

*by the way I later credited Dirk with takening a less than great team in 07 to 67 wins*

I think this is a flawed question to begin with because Lebron isnt said to have no help literally...just none in comparison to others doing what they do. Nobody is calling them the same as the 03 Nuggets or anything. But they are on pace to win what? 60-64 games? consider the teams to EVER win at the rate Lebrons team is doing. This is just off the top of my head....


60s Celtics
Late 60s early 70s Knicks
Wilt 76ers and Lakers
The Celtics briefly with Hondo and Cowens
Kareem and Oscar robertsons bucks. Kareem may have done it before Oscar too.

I dont think anyone else did it in the 70s. 80s? Showtime, Birds Celtics, Docs 76ers maybe the Bucks one or two times, Isiahs Pistons towards the end and one of Drexlers teams won 63 I think. 90s you have Jordans Bulls, Barkleys suns, Ewings knicks one or two times. The Jazz. Zos Heat, the Sonics with Payton, Kemp, detlef, and so on and....The Spurs with Drob. I think the Magic hit 60 with Shaq and Penny once. Shaq won 60s one of those years in La. Maybe...98 I think?

2000s its shaqs lakers, Dirk Mavs, KGs Celtics, the 04 Pistons, Duncans Spurs, and the 03 Pacers. Oh and the Kings. Maybe the Blazers in 99 or 2000 too.

That it?

Im gonna assume the average ISH poster known enough of history that I dont need to run down those teamss lineups to show how they blow the Cavs out of the water. Entire list...all history of the NBA? The only teams I see with a similar level of talent(defensive or otherwise) after its #1 that the Cavs have to work with after Bron?

Drobs Spurs unless the year they hit 60 was with Rodman, Elliot, and Avery as I think it was. Id take Rodman over anyone on the cavs period...as a defensive talent? Its a blowout.

Duncans 03 Spurs. Manu and Parker were far from stars. They had better defensive players though so if we are falling back on that to make up for offense....they are also more talented than the cavs. Peak Bowen and even an old Drob were bigger defensive talents than Lebron has to work with. Ben Wallace is still a force on his good nights but hes hardly still big Ben. Hes more....Medium Ben. Smedium eve. I watched him for 2 years on the Bulls. Hes not an every night star anymore.

If you want to call Stockton, Hornacek, and company untalented....fine. But you cant defend it. Hornacek in his prime was better than anyone but Bron on the cavs is. HE was an all star the year before he got to the Jazz. He just let a lot go to play his role. Besides...anyone gonna take anyone on the cavs over the best "pure" point of all time backed by Jerry Sloan on the bench?

What else we got? I cant think of any more of those teams even begin to compare talent wise to Lebrons. The worst may well be the 2003 Mavs who had 2MVPs and Finley and Vanexel. Them or Ewings Kniocks...with Starks, Oakley, Smith, Mason and company. Cant talk about defense being a talent and rank these Cavs as equals of those teams.

Lebron has to me easily the worst or among the worst supporting casts offensive or overall to even win the way he is now. some of them dont play the same D as the Cavs but if you tell me you want to build a team with Mo, Z, Anderson, 09 Ben Wallace, west, Wally, and Gibson as your supporting players....and not say....Tim Hardaway, Mashburn, Majerle, Pj Brown, Bowen, and Lenard? Or Shawn Kemp,/Payton whoever you put #2 Detlef, Nate,and those ballhawks?

Then youre a liar. The Cavs arent talented compared to teams that win like them. They arent even that talented compared to teams that dont win.

Will someone tell me how Wade, Marion, Haslem, Beasley and so on are miles less talented than Lebron, Z, West, Andy, and Wally? The Cavs arent that deep either. Take the first 5 players off that team and you could easily have the depthchart equal to the bottom 10 roster spots of most bad teams. They are neither deep nor top heavy Lebron aside. What they are is consistient, hard working, and led by one of the best players to ever step on a basketball court.

But they are not exceptional talents even if we consider defense as a talent. The Bulls have more talented indidivual defensive players than the Cavs for gods sake. Kirk, Deng, Tyrus, Noah, Hunter, and Hughes? as defensive talents they murder the Cavs role players. Just slaughter. And yet....they dont win.

But they would if they had Lebron. And then they would be talented I guess.

Lebrons Cavs are no more talented than the average NBA team. Winning doesnt always mean the team is talented. Just means they play well together. If chemistry is an individual talent? fine. One of the better teams in the league. But it isnt. Its very idea is based on togetherness. Cant be individually talented at chemistry I dont think, And if you could few of those players proved they were elsewhere.

Lebron isnt the entire reason they play well.....but hes enough of it that we dont need to be looking hard and redefining talent to find why they are winning.

[Fudge]

This. People always forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).

REKT.

[retaxis]

REKT.

What's Durant? Wheelchaired? I'm gonna laugh so hard when okc goes Gilbert arenas with Durant. Durant taking 200mil and sitting in Washington with his family with a broken leg

[Fudge]

What's Durant? Wheelchaired? I'm gonna laugh so hard when okc goes Gilbert arenas with Durant. Durant taking 200mil and sitting in Washington with his family with a broken leg

lololol Durant and Fudge

living rent free

[SamuraiSWISH]

He didn't have a reliable, consistent, star caliber supplemental help. But what he has had in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 more than makes up for the fact. And in those 4 seasons of having legit superstar help ... he's 2 for 4 winning chips. We'll see what happens this year.