Ricky Rubio vs. Jason Williams. Purely on potential, who has a higher ceiling?

[NBAplayoffs2001]

This one is tough I think.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Well Jason Williams' ceiling is his peak, since the guy is retired.

So what was his peak?

14.8/8:3/1.7 steals on .382/.295/.792 for a 23 win team.
Or, 12.1/8.3:2.2/1.2 steals on .388/.354/.840 for a 28 win team
Or, 12.3/4.9:1.7/0.9 steals on .442/.372/.867 for a championship team.

Can Rubio do better than those season?

Eventually I believe so. I think Williams had more natural basketball talent tho.

[Kblaze8855]

His peak was with Hubie when he helped Memphis make the playoffs. Not great numbers but a lot of respected basketball minds had him highly ranked far as how he handled the team.

[32MJ32]

Jason Williams re-invented himself into a solid starter for winning basketball teams and his legacy, for mine, is as much about a) his hand in helping the Grizzlies from laughing stock to playoff team and then b) his championship run with Miami as it is about his White Chocolate days in Sacramento.

Would any team with championship or playoff aspirations want Rubio as their starter right now, considering how historically poor his shooting is? Or is he forever going to be remembered as a highlight reel passer for crappy teams, like Williams would have been had he never matured?

For mine, I think Rubio's "ceiling" is Jason Kidd, if we're defining ceiling by "this is 100% as good as this guy could ever be." I think if everything broke PERFECTLY for Rubio, he could average 18, 5 and 8 along with 2 steals and make enough 3's to keep the defense honest. He is, after all, 23 and has plenty of basketball left ahead of him. I see that, obviously, as the absolute high point of his potential. Jason Kidd is a Hall of Famer.

And if I were betting on Rubio getting there: nope. I can't see it.

At this stage, I'd argue that even reaching the point Jason Williams did would be a good effort for Ricky. He needs to totally overhaul his game or fall into a system where he is SURROUNDED by shooting if he's ever going to run a team that wins 55+ games and goes deep into the playoffs. Considering the best shooting big man in the league just left his side, that's not going to happen this season and may never happen in Minnesota. He might have to find himself a new team. That.. or learn how to shoot the f*ckin' ball.

tl;dr version: I can see Rubio retiring with a worse career resume than Jason Williams

[RedBlackAttack]

For mine, I think Rubio's "ceiling" is Jason Kidd, if we're defining ceiling by "this is 100% as good as this guy could ever be."

Man... I have to strongly disagree on that one. I don't even think everything breaking perfectly for Rubio would have him on Jason Kidd's level, at least not prime Kidd. Rubio is a pretty good all-around player, but his atrocious inability to score cannot be overlooked.

Kidd wasn't exactly a scoring machine either, but at his best, he was really crafty around the basket. I don't think Rubio is capable of finishing at a 64+% clip at the rim even under the best possible circumstances.

Meanwhile, Kidd was also arguably the best natural playmaking and defensive PG in the NBA during that period (late-1990s, early-2000s).

It should actually be really interesting to see how Rubio looks without Love next to him. We'll find out a lot about Rubio's true abilities this season. It may prove that I've underestimated him all along. He's damn fun to watch, but I still have a lot of reservations until he shows he can at least be a remote threat as a scorer.

[Cone]

Jason Williams re-invented himself into a solid starter for winning basketball teams and his legacy, for mine, is as much about a) his hand in helping the Grizzlies from laughing stock to playoff team and then b) his championship run with Miami as it is about his White Chocolate days in Sacramento.

Would any team with championship or playoff aspirations want Rubio as their starter right now, considering how historically poor his shooting is? Or is he forever going to be remembered as a highlight reel passer for crappy teams, like Williams would have been had he never matured?

For mine, I think Rubio's "ceiling" is Jason Kidd, if we're defining ceiling by "this is 100% as good as this guy could ever be." I think if everything broke PERFECTLY for Rubio, he could average 18, 5 and 8 along with 2 steals and make enough 3's to keep the defense honest. He is, after all, 23 and has plenty of basketball left ahead of him. I see that, obviously, as the absolute high point of his potential. Jason Kidd is a Hall of Famer.

And if I were betting on Rubio getting there: nope. I can't see it.

At this stage, I'd argue that even reaching the point Jason Williams did would be a good effort for Ricky. He needs to totally overhaul his game or fall into a system where he is SURROUNDED by shooting if he's ever going to run a team that wins 55+ games and goes deep into the playoffs. Considering the best shooting big man in the league just left his side, that's not going to happen this season and may never happen in Minnesota. He might have to find himself a new team. That.. or learn how to shoot the f*ckin' ball.

tl;dr version: I can see Rubio retiring with a worse career resume than Jason Williams

Dirk left Minnesota?

[Meticode]

Man... I have to strongly disagree on that one. I don't even think everything breaking perfectly for Rubio would have him on Jason Kidd's level, at least not prime Kidd. Rubio is a pretty good all-around player, but his atrocious inability to score cannot be overlooked.

Kidd wasn't exactly a scoring machine either, but at his best, he was really crafty around the basket. I don't think Rubio is capable of finishing at a 64+% clip at the rim even under the best possible circumstances.

Meanwhile, Kidd was also arguably the best natural playmaking and defensive PG in the NBA during that period (late-1990s, early-2000s).

It should actually be really interesting to see how Rubio looks without Love next to him. We'll find out a lot about Rubio's true abilities this season. It may prove that I've underestimated him all along. He's damn fun to watch, but I still have a lot of reservations until he shows he can at least be a remote threat as a scorer.

To play devil's advocate in this debate and to be fair, Kidd didn't shoot above 40% from the field until this third year in the league. His first two years he show below 39% similar to Rubio. Also let's not forget Rubio messed up his knee and that set him back. To to be honest Kidd was never a great overall in terms of offensive efficiency regarding his career 40.0% field goal percentage. His last three seasons in the league he shot the ball worse from the field than Rubio has, sub 37% two of three years. The main difference so far between them is that Kidd developed an outside three point shot that at least you had to respect. Rubio still has time to develop at least a shot that has to be respected.

[IGOTGAME]

Rubio got hurt.

Imo this is even a debate. Rubio had way more potential before the knee injury took away a lot of his quickness laterally.

[32MJ32]

Dirk left Minnesota?

Touche

[stalkerforlife]

Jwill, while not having the most impressive numbers, was vital for the Grizzlies and Heat. His ball handling skills and ability to quickly setup an offense was elite. Jwill went ham on the Pistons in the conference finals in the closing game, something like 10-12 and hit his first 10 shots. A memorable performance on a big stage. Jwill was great for team chemistry, too. Players loved Jwill, he's funny and people like to be around him.

Rubio can obviously surpass Jwill numbers wise, but I don't know about impact wise.

Better potential - Rubio because of his size and length.

[IGOTGAME]

Jwill, while not having the most impressive numbers, was vital for the Grizzlies and Heat. His ball handling skills and ability to quickly setup an offense was elite. Jwill went ham on the Pistons in the conference finals in the closing game, something like 10-12 and hit his first 10 shots. A memorable performance on a big stage. Jwill was great for team chemistry, too. Players loved Jwill, he's funny and people like to be around him.

Rubio can obviously surpass Jwill numbers wise, but I don't know about impact wise.

Better potential - Rubio because of his size and length.

yea, because Rubio isn't great for team chemistry. No one likes playing with him.

[stalkerforlife]

yea, because Rubio isn't great for team chemistry. No one likes playing with him.

Love doesn't.

[32MJ32]

To play devil's advocate in this debate and to be fair, Kidd didn't shoot above 40% from the field until this third year in the league. His first two years he show below 39% similar to Rubio. Also let's not forget Rubio messed up his knee and that set him back. To to be honest Kidd was never a great overall in terms of offensive efficiency regarding his career 40.0% field goal percentage. His last three seasons in the league he shot the ball worse from the field than Rubio has, sub 37% two of three years. The main difference so far between them is that Kidd developed an outside three point shot that at least you had to respect. Rubio still has time to develop at least a shot that has to be respected.

Yeah, this is how I feel about it as well. Kidd is the working example of an A+ career a point guard can have without being a natural shooter, which is why I think he's what Ricky should be aiming for.

And to further clarify what I meant by ceiling... let's look at it in video game terms. Rubio's what.. a 75 overall right now? If everything went his way and he got to his ceiling of 95 overall, he'd resemble Jason Kidd, for mine. Great playmaker, ballhawk, solid stand still 3 point shooter, tall for his position, run a team and win games without needing to score 30+ etc.

Now, do I think Rubio's gonna hit 95 overall? No, I'm skeptical. However, I'm not sure I'm ready to "call it a day" on his All-Star potential when he's 23. His ceiling remains high. Higher than Jason Williams reached, IMHO. Getting there is a totally different story.

[IGOTGAME]

Love doesn't.

guess they are fundamentally different players. Rubios plays to win at all cost and doesn't cut corners. Love plays for stats and routinely cuts corners on defense to get there.

Btw...I'm pretty sure they got along will on the floor. Its just that people expected love to be a leader and he isnt

[stalkerforlife]

guess they are fundamentally different players. Rubios plays to win at all cost and doesn't cut corners. Love plays for stats and routinely cuts corners on defense to get there.

Btw...I'm pretty sure they got along will on the floor. Its just that people expected love to be a leader and he isnt

Agreed.