Whos your top 10 defenders Alltime?

[Harison]

Russell
Hakeem
Thurmond
Garnett
Rodman
Wilt
DRob (its weird nobody mentioned him yet, before the injury he was actually better defender than Duncan).
TD

Wings:
Jordan
Pippen
Frazier
Payton

[fpliii]

In no particular order:

Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dikembe Mutombo
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Bill Russell
Nate Thurmond
Ben Wallace

That's 9 I guess. Walton and Kareem both have cases for the last spot. Guys who weren't interior defenders might come close too (Pippen, Rodman, Moncrief, Cooper, Payton, Jordan, Artest, etc. help defense is more important than man D so some guys stand out more), but size is a huge advantage. Ewing, Mourning, Peak Shaq are HMs. I think Bobby Jones is going to be my tenth guy, based on what I've read/watched of him. Dwight can make a case with more top-shelf seasons.

[LAZERUSS]

In no particular order:

Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dikembe Mutombo
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Bill Russell
Nate Thurmond
Ben Wallace

That's 9 I guess. Walton and Kareem both have cases for the last spot. Guys who weren't interior defenders might come close too (Pippen, Rodman, Moncrief, Cooper, Payton, Jordan, Artest, etc. help defense is more important than man D so some guys stand out more), but size is a huge advantage. Ewing, Mourning, Peak Shaq are HMs. I think Bobby Jones is going to be my tenth guy, based on what I've read/watched of him. Dwight can make a case with more top-shelf seasons.

Kareem is a tough one. Early in his career, he was anchoring four straight teams that had the best FG% agaist mark in the league each season, as well as top-3 in ppg allowed. And I would say he was still an excellent defender up until his last MVP season, in 79-80. After that he was pretty much just an offensive player. Both his rebounding and defense declined each season thereafter.

[fpliii]

Kareem is a tough one. Early in his career, he was anchoring four straight teams that had the best FG% agaist mark in the league each season, as well as top-3 in ppg allowed. And I would say he was still an excellent defender up until his last MVP season, in 79-80. After that he was pretty much just an offensive player. Both his rebounding and defense declined each season thereafter.

Walton is tough as well, given the short prime. Do you have the same top 9? Of so, who's the last guy in? If not, who do you have instead?

[fpliii]

Regarding Kareem, here's a post of mine from another site:

The defense is tough for Kareem. I'm taking a break from MJ/Russ and moving on to Cap, but here are his teams' relative DRtgs compared to the league average (minutes played in parentheses):

MIL
69 +2.2% (0)
70 -1.1% (3534)
71 -3.5% (3288)
72 -4.9% (3583)
73 -5.5% (3254)
74 -4.2% (3548)
75 +0.2% (2747)
76 +0.4% (0)

LAL
75 +2.3% (0)
76 +0.5% (3379)
77 -0.7% (3016)
78 -0.1% (2265)
79 -0.6% (3157)
80 -1.3% (3143)
81 -1.6% (2976)
82 -1.3% (2677)
83 +0.5% (2554)
84 -0.3% (2622)
85 -0.8% (2630)
86 -1.3% (2629)
87 -1.7% (2441)
88 -0.7% (2308)
89 -1.0% (1695)
90 -1.0% (0)

The first set of bolded years seem to be impressive, as do 80-82 (after which I don't feel comfortable assigning him too much credit/blame). 75-79 seem out of place here, though we can discount 75 due to injury. 76-79 don't seem what you'd expect based on his earlier career, but based on LAL in 75, maybe the rest of the team was awful defensively? I'll have to do more research, but the numbers seem odd. At the moment, I'm going with:

75 - injury
76 - getting used to the team
77,78,79 - had to anchor the offense, so didn't have enough energy to dedicate himself as much to defense; these numbers aren't terrible, but you'd expect more based on 71-74...maybe we have to take the split leagues/expansion into account, and those seasons overstate his defensive impact?

Anyhow, what do you guys think?

I think he was good through 82 based on these numbers, but 75-79 is tough to explain. I tried to figure it out in the post, but based on the years before and after you'd think the defenses would be better.

[LAZERUSS]

Regarding Kareem, here's a post of mine from another site:



I think he was good through 82 based on these numbers, but 75-79 is tough to explain. I tried to figure it out in the post, but based on the years before and after you'd think the defenses would be better.

I have said this before, but the evidence certainly suggests it...KAJ simply went thru the motions for much of '75 thru '79. He could be brilliant in spurts, but his overall play declined sharply from his '71 thru '74 dominance.

And I honestly believe that had not Magic arrived in '80, that Kareem would have retired in the mid-80's with one ring, and his career would have been somewhat of a disappointment, and an under-achievement.

[fpliii]

I have said this before, but the evidence certainly suggests it...KAJ simply went thru the motions for much of '75 thru '79. He could be brilliant in spurts, but his overall play declined sharply from his '71 thru '74 dominance.

And I honestly believe that had not Magic arrived in '80, that Kareem would have retired in the mid-80's with one ring, and his career would have been somewhat of a disappointment, and an under-achievement.

Perhaps. BTW other than the big three, who are your top 10 defenders?

[LAZERUSS]

Perhaps. BTW other than the big three, who are your top 10 defenders?

Outside of centers, it's difficult. In most cases, the centers are at least battling each other, and you can get a better perspective of at least their one-on-one defense. And the better shot-blockers are usually centers, too, and that is an example of controlling the entire paint on defense.

But I always liked Michael Cooper, who was considered "the Bird-stopper." Jerry West was a brilliant defensive player who probably had multiple games of 10+ steals. So was Walt Frazier.

Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Kobe, MJ, Pippen, a young Rodman, and certainly Lebron.

Other centers? Robinson, Hakeem, Lanier, Wallace, and Howard.

[fpliii]

Outside of centers, it's difficult. In most cases, the centers are at least battling each other, and you can get a better perspective of at least their one-on-one defense. And the better shot-blockers are usually centers, too, and that is an example of controlling the entire paint on defense.

But I always liked Michael Cooper, who was considered "the Bird-stopper." Jerry West was a brilliant defensive player who probably had multiple games of 10+ steals. So was Walt Frazier.

Bruce Bowen, Bobby Jones, Kobe, MJ, Pippen, a young Rodman, and certainly Lebron.

Other centers? Robinson, Hakeem, Lanier, Wallace, and Howard.

Does Bellamy warrant a mention?

[LAZERUSS]

Does Bellamy warrant a mention?

Well, he certainly couldn't come close to containing a prime Chamberlain. Wilt had entire seasons, covering ten games in each season, of averaging 43.7 and a mind-boggling 52.7 ppg against him. Even as late as his '65-66 season, Chamberlain averaged 33 ppg (including yet another 50 point game), in his nine h2h's with Bellamy. Then, in the '68 playoffs, Wilt not only averaged 25.5 ppg on .584 shooting against Bellamy, he held Walt, who had shot .541 over the course of the entire season, to .421 shooting in that series.

This is not a knock on Bellamy, as a whole, but to my knowledge, he was never considered a good defender.

Bob Lanier certainly was, though, and yet a 35-36 year old Wilt, in his last two seasons, and covering 11 h2h games against Lanier, averaged 23.9 ppg on .784 shooting against him...including one 32-31 game.

[Smoke117]

Russell
Hakeem
Thurmond
Garnett
Rodman
Wilt
DRob (its weird nobody mentioned him yet, before the injury he was actually better defender than Duncan).
TD

Wings:
Jordan
Pippen
Frazier
Payton

Seriously. Besides Hakeem he was the most dominant defensive player in he league. He was a BETTER defender than Duncan even after his back injury as it allowed him to put more effort into his defense. Up until around 2002, 2003, he was their best defensive player. His 1992 season stands as one of the most dominant defensive seasons ever. Putting Mutombo while leaving out Robinson is laughable. Mutombo was so slow he couldn't even defend anyone. There's a 1995 game that someone put up with the Spurs vs the Hawks and Mutombo isn't even defending Robinson...because he couldn't.

Robinson was also a much better team/help defender because of his speed and quickness. Mutombo blocked a lot of shots, but he had piss poor foot movement. The year Robinson won the DPOY he averaged a crazy 4.5bpg and 2.3spg. He led the league in total blocks despite only playing 68 games. The Spurs were first in drating with 104.1 and Robinson was a 94...10 below the teams rating. The only defensive player better than Robinson over the last 30 odd years is Hakeem Olajuwon.

[fsvr54]

It's sad that KG isn't on everybody's list.


The only player that could literally guard every single position on the court effectively and consistently on any type of situation.

I'm not talking about backing away from smaller players and daring them to shoot or shadowing them. I'm talking about straight up defense on any player regardless of position or height.

Some players can do that at times with perhaps some success.

But Kg was more consistent at defending them well than anybody I've seen (to be honest never seen Russell).

I agree, KG is the best defensive anchor of this era.

[LAZERUSS]

Seriously. Besides Hakeem he was the most dominant defensive player in he league. He was a BETTER defender than Duncan even after his back injury as it allowed him to put more effort into his defense. Up until around 2002, 2003, he was there best defensive player. His 1992 season stands as one of the most dominant defensive seasons ever. Putting Mutombo while leaving out Robinson is laughable. Mutombo was so slow he couldn't even defend anyone. There's a 1995 game that someone put up with the Spurs vs the Hawks and Mutombo isn't even defending Robinson...because he couldn't.

Robinson was also a much better team/help defender because of his speed and quickness. Mutombo blocked a lot of shots, but he had piss poor foot movement. The year Robinson won the DPOY he averaged a crazy 4.5bpg and 2.3spg. He led the league in total blocks despite only playing 68 games. The Spurs were first in drating with 104.1 and Robinson was a 94...10 below the teams rating. The only defensive player better than Robinson over the last 30 odd years is Hakeem Olajuwon.

Aside from the '95 WCF's, when Hakeem destroyed Robinson, the rest of their 42 career h2h's were almost dead even statistically. MPG, RPG, BPG, APG, etc. were all equal, and while Hakeem slightly outscored D-Rob in those 42 games, Robinson outshot Hakeem from the field by a .488 to .441 margin. Oh, and btw, Robinson's Spurs also went 30-12 against Hakeem's Rockets in that span.

Unfortunately for the Admiral, his entire career seems to be judged by that one six game series (and he was only outplayed in four of them.)

[alexd]

no love for mookie blaylock?
my top 10 is for 90s until today cause then i started watching
in no order
mookie
gp
stockton(he was a dirty bastard)
hakeem
dunckan
kg
rodman
pippen
jordan
ron artest

[Harison]

@ Smoke117 and LAZERUSS

Exactly, DRob is criminally underrated, especially defensively. Duncan got all the laurels, and Robinson got... what exactly? He gets no credit for Spurs championships, and his entire career seems to be judged entirely by 95 WCF...

I'm quite confident if we swap TD with Robinson, their careers would be completely different, with Duncan getting no respect and DRob getting all the credit, just as unfairly.