Charles Barkley: "Comparing Kobe to Jordan is ridiculous"

[juju151111]

I was on here bashing him like most people. Saying he choked and the game is on him . I know that I've "owned" you in nearly every thread (sorry!), but you gotta get over this hate.

Still figuring out a single instance where I've overrated Kobe? I approach him with indifference, like I've said before. But I guess not hating on him on this board is as good as being the LORD stan. Is Kobe top 10 all time if he wins this year? Duh. Does Kobe win championships in MJs place? Yup (even the biggest Jordan fan on here estimated he wins atleast 3-4). Was Kobe a dispensable sidekick for the three rings? Nope. Are Jordan rules less geared at stopping Kobe, considering his game didn't depend as much on driving as Jordan's did? True again. But this is just stan talk, right?

Once again did Kobe beat the suns with his bum ass team in 06?? No So how the **** do you expect kobe to beat 2 time chips the pistons. Fatal Once again Tell me wat you see here http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-...als-game-7.php

[letsgolakers123]

That is why PER; EFF, Statistical +/- Tells The Story Closer to Reality

Not Rings AMount of Rings or Not, Not Hype, Not Poll Votings, Not Coach Likes, Not All NBA Team Votings, Not Media...

but IMPACT and EFFICIENCY = REALITY

This can only be seen by REAL NBA FANS without the need of the Hype and Votings

As i said before many times and before finding these broken down stats

haha sir charles you can't be considered the top of anything if you did not win with your team!! hahaha

[Fatal9]

Once again did Kobe beat the suns with his bum ass team in 06?? No So how the **** do you expect kobe to beat 2 time chips the pistons. Fatal Once again Tell me wat you see here http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-...als-game-7.php

What are you trying to prove with this one game? Jordan's teammates weren't ready yet? I've already said that so what do you want .

I'm not saying Kobe leads the Bulls to win against the Pistons or anything along those lines. The point is that a) Piston defense is very overrated and should not be compared with 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics, and b) Jordan Rules would be less effective at stopping Kobe. The reason for saying this is because people have this stubborn, misleading image of the "bad-boys" (the moniker doesn't help!) Pistons, and also because they are brought in to the discussion of greatest defensive teams when they don't belong (seriously what all-time great defensive teams aren't even the best rated defense in the league at the time?!?).

[32jazz]

na I post on pahs page on youtube. Pah is on another level then Fatal. Fatal atleast says something good about MJ (Even if it's rarly) and Pah calls Kobe Goat after every game. I prefer Pah tho because he doesn't pretend like Fatal does. 32jazz is another retard.

Based upon my only dozen or so posts (in over a year) weighing in on a subject(Kobe/MJ which I usually avoid like the plague) it's apparent that it's losers like you, with over 3000 posts, who are the mentally/socially challenged ones.

I only bothered to speak of this subject 1) because Kobe is a first page obssession & 2) I'm amused at how even Rick Barry,Smith,MJ & anyone who dare says something good about Lebron/Kobe is trashed.

The insecurity you losers show is the same that I saw from some when it was apparent that Obama could become President(white supremists sites were crashing) The world won't end IF Kobe wins so stop with all the Kobe threads/hate.

For the most part I have better things to do than argue(like homos ) over two men who could crush us all with their wallets. Message boards cannot make or break these mens' bank accounts nor their legacy.

[Roundball_Rock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpwz_rcQ08A
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9534572/LeBron's-already-the-best-of-his-era
http://www.nysun.com/sports/without-...-player/72508/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/sport...10212799.shtml
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/10/16/n...on-james-no-1/
( I don't agree with orders 2-50, I do agree with #1)
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...legend

Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber, Hubie Brown, Jerry West and many many others all have used the statement "LeBron James best player in the NBA...." Michael Jordan even went as far to say that LeBron could go down at the "best ever".

Still trolling, spamming, and posting your agenda spewing crap I see roundballcrockofcrap

What does LeBron have to do with Pippen, Jordan, and Charles Barkley?

I agree that LeBron is the best player in the league right now btw.

a 55 wins without Jordan Ok Since you want to be reminded. Mj went to the ECF with scottie in his rookie season ridingh the bench.

Myth. MJ lost in five games in the ECSF in Pippen/Grant's rookie year. He did not start making the ECF until Pippen/Grant became starters and Pippen the second leading scorer. 1988 was significant because it was the first time MJ got out the first round.

Look, 90% of basketball fans already recognize Jordan as the GOAT

Exactly and those who do not consider MJ the GOAT believe someone like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Russell, or Bird is the GOAT. I find it amusing that criticism of MJ is deemed to be an attempt to elevate Kobe. Kobe is not in that top tier. If MJ gets knocked down that elevates Kareem, Wilt, Magic, and co.

'm sorry but you can't just take three pointers off of Kobe's fg %. It is part of his game and it is his fault he has taken so many in his career to hurt his fg %.

Shooting 34% on 3's is as efficient as shooting 51% on 2's. They both produce 1.02 points per 2 shots.

As to Fatal, calling him a troll is ridiculous. This guy ALWAYS backs up his opinions with well-reasoned, well-argued and factual posts.

Dude, Fatal9 is KB42PAH

Wait, I heard yesterday that I am.

32jazz is another retard.

32jazz is another great poster.

The insecurity you losers show is the same that I saw from some when it was apparent that Obama could become President(white supremists sites were crashing) The world won't end IF Kobe wins so stop with all the Kobe threads/hate.

Yup.

[juju151111]

Based upon my only dozen or so posts (in over a year) weighing in on a subject(Kobe/MJ which I usually avoid like the plague) it's apparent that it's losers like you, with over 3000 posts, who are the mentally/socially challenged ones.

I only bothered to speak of this subject 1) because Kobe is a first page obssession & 2) I'm amused at how even Rick Barry,Smith,MJ & anyone who dare says something good about Lebron/Kobe is trashed.

The insecurity you losers show is the same that I saw from some when it was apparent that Obama could become President(white supremists sites were crashing) The world won't end IF Kobe wins so stop with all the Kobe threads/hate.

For the most part I have better things to do than argue(like homos ) over two men who could crush us all with their wallets. Message boards cannot make or break these mens' bank accounts nor their legacy.

Well obviously i am talking about the times you commented on the subject. Do you avoid the threads with KB fans trying to overrate him especially last year. They went nuts when he made the finals.( They loss which is why you see alot of LA fans backing down this year). I didn't know my post count made me a loser. I will try to post less so you can have a better opinion of me ok.

[juju151111]

What does LeBron have to do with Pippen, Jordan, and Charles Barkley?

I agree that LeBron is the best player in the league right now btw.



Myth. MJ lost in five games in the ECSF in Pippen/Grant's rookie year. He did not start making the ECF until Pippen/Grant became starters and Pippen the second leading scorer. 1988 was significant because it was the first time MJ got out the first round.



Exactly and those who do not consider MJ the GOAT believe someone like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Russell, or Bird is the GOAT. I find it amusing that criticism of MJ is deemed to be an attempt to elevate Kobe. Kobe is not in that top tier. If MJ gets knocked down that elevates Kareem, Wilt, Magic, and co.



Shooting 34% on 3's is as efficient as shooting 51% on 2's. They both produce 1.02 points per 2 shots.

As to Fatal, calling him a troll is ridiculous. This guy ALWAYS backs up his opinions with well-reasoned, well-argued and factual posts.



Wait, I heard yesterday that I am.



32jazz is another great poster.



Yup.

My fault about 88. your right it was the ECSF. I actually like your posts, when it doesn't have to do with MJ lol

[32jazz]

Well obviously i am talking about the times you commented on the subject. Do you avoid the threads with KB fans trying to overrate him especially last year. They went nuts when he made the finals.( They loss which is why you see alot of LA fans backing down this year). I didn't know my post count made me a loser. I will try to post less so you can have a better opinion of me ok.

No your obssession with another man(Kobe especially ) & calling me out for no reason makes you a loser. Nowhere have I nor roundball, fatal 9, Rick Barry,etc......... said that Kobe is better than MJ so what's with attacking us (Although I don't think it is a big a gulf as some would have us believe).

In fact I specifically state that MJ is the best all around SG ever. Period. Why is saying something complimentary about Lebron/Kobe so offensive? Insecurity? What's in it for you guys to defend another man so viciously & at someone else's expense many times?

Some one has stated that MJ's legacy is set in stone(I agree wholeheartedly) so what's the point in obssessing over Kobe & attacking anyone who thinks he or Lebron are great players also?

[juju151111]

No your obssession with another man(Kobe especially ) & calling me out for no reason makes you a loser. Nowhere have I nor roundball, fatal 9, Rick Barry,etc......... said that Kobe is better than MJ so what's with attacking us (Although I don't think it is a big a gulf as some would have us believe).

In fact I specifically state that MJ is the best all around SG ever. Period. Why is saying something complimentary about Lebron/Kobe so offensive? Insecurity? What's in it for you guys to defend another man so viciously & at someone else's expense many times?

Some one has stated that MJ's legacy is set in stone(I agree wholeheartedly) so what's the point in obssessing over Kobe & attacking anyone who thinks he or Lebron are great players also?

LOL i am not obssess with kobe lol. Some people don't have to say KB>MJ They can imply it. For example, You will see Kobe fans say this " MJ>KB, but MJ played against shorter, weaker, etc.." I don't bash Kobe at all (Your thinking of someone else) i defend MJ. I agree that KB and LB are great players. How could i hate people i don't even now?

[DonDadda59]

What are you trying to prove with this one game? Jordan's teammates weren't ready yet? I've already said that so what do you want .

I'm not saying Kobe leads the Bulls to win against the Pistons or anything along those lines. The point is that a) Piston defense is very overrated and should not be compared with 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics, and b) Jordan Rules would be less effective at stopping Kobe. The reason for saying this is because people have this stubborn, misleading image of the "bad-boys" (the moniker doesn't help!) Pistons, and also because they are brought in to the discussion of greatest defensive teams when they don't belong (seriously what all-time great defensive teams aren't even the best rated defense in the league at the time?!?).

2003-2004 Detroit Pistons Defensive Rating: 95.4 (2nd of 29)

You simply don't learn do you? Stop posting already.

[bruceblitz]

1: Kobe faces easier competition and less intense defenses:
Proof is as follows

Kobe's improved scoring a product of the rules changes?

-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

(01-02, 02-03, 03-04 Playoffs: Kobe avg 20.7 shots per game vs Shaq who averaged 16.85 shots per game, during this timespan of 3 years, so as you can see Shaq was able to outscore Kobe with efficiency. The main reason that Kobe started to take more shots than Shaq was the fact that teams were double teaming Shaq too much so he was passing out of these double teams and getting players like Kobe more good looks. Did Shaq bail Kobe out? yes, a lot. Shaq was outscoring Kobe in their last 3 years together on 4 less shot attempts per game. Shaq always saved his best for the playoffs and finals. Shaq was the most dominant center in NBA Finals history during the LA Lakers portion of his career!)

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 08-09)
387 games - 29.98 ppg

KOBE ALSO DIDN'T START FACING THAT MANY DOUBLE TEAMS UNTIL SHAQ LEFT THE TEAM. SHAQ WAS THE ONE DRAWING THE MAJORITY OF DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMS WHICH FREES UP KOBE ON THE PERIMETER.

THE FIRST YEAR THAT KOBE WAS THE MAIN FOCUS OF DEFENSES, HIS FG% WASN'T GOOD AT ALL DUE TO THE FACT THAT KOBE NOW HAD TO LEARN HOW TO DEFEAT DOUBLE TEAMS IN 2004-2005, KOBE SHOT 43.3% THAT YEAR.

--sidenote: Kobe's assists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 assists per game to 5.5 assists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.

-------------------
♠ Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.

This is the attitude and style of play during the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ
You don't see that anymore....

[BlackMamba24]

1: Kobe faces easier competition and less intense defenses:
Proof is as follows

Kobe's improved scoring a product of the rules changes?

-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

(01-02, 02-03, 03-04 Playoffs: Kobe avg 20.7 shots per game vs Shaq who averaged 16.85 shots per game, during this timespan of 3 years, so as you can see Shaq was able to outscore Kobe with efficiency. The main reason that Kobe started to take more shots than Shaq was the fact that teams were double teaming Shaq too much so he was passing out of these double teams and getting players like Kobe more good looks. Did Shaq bail Kobe out? yes, a lot. Shaq was outscoring Kobe in their last 3 years together on 4 less shot attempts per game. Shaq always saved his best for the playoffs and finals. Shaq was the most dominant center in NBA Finals history during the LA Lakers portion of his career!)

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 08-09)
387 games - 29.98 ppg

KOBE ALSO DIDN'T START FACING THAT MANY DOUBLE TEAMS UNTIL SHAQ LEFT THE TEAM. SHAQ WAS THE ONE DRAWING THE MAJORITY OF DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMS WHICH FREES UP KOBE ON THE PERIMETER.

THE FIRST YEAR THAT KOBE WAS THE MAIN FOCUS OF DEFENSES, HIS FG% WASN'T GOOD AT ALL DUE TO THE FACT THAT KOBE NOW HAD TO LEARN HOW TO DEFEAT DOUBLE TEAMS IN 2004-2005, KOBE SHOT 43.3% THAT YEAR.

--sidenote: Kobe's assists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 assists per game to 5.5 assists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.

-------------------
♠ Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.

This is the attitude and style of play during the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ
You don't see that anymore....

Kobe is the GOAT. Period

81. 62 in 3 quarters. Better 3 point shooter. Better rebounder, scorer, more clutch and a better defender.

Carried Shaq to 3 rings. Robbed of 5 mvps. Shutdown Jordan in 2003 all star game. Jordan<Kobe.

[OneMoreSucka]

1: Kobe faces easier competition and less intense defenses:
Proof is as follows

Kobe's improved scoring a product of the rules changes?

-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

(01-02, 02-03, 03-04 Playoffs: Kobe avg 20.7 shots per game vs Shaq who averaged 16.85 shots per game, during this timespan of 3 years, so as you can see Shaq was able to outscore Kobe with efficiency. The main reason that Kobe started to take more shots than Shaq was the fact that teams were double teaming Shaq too much so he was passing out of these double teams and getting players like Kobe more good looks. Did Shaq bail Kobe out? yes, a lot. Shaq was outscoring Kobe in their last 3 years together on 4 less shot attempts per game. Shaq always saved his best for the playoffs and finals. Shaq was the most dominant center in NBA Finals history during the LA Lakers portion of his career!)

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 08-09)
387 games - 29.98 ppg

KOBE ALSO DIDN'T START FACING THAT MANY DOUBLE TEAMS UNTIL SHAQ LEFT THE TEAM. SHAQ WAS THE ONE DRAWING THE MAJORITY OF DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMS WHICH FREES UP KOBE ON THE PERIMETER.

THE FIRST YEAR THAT KOBE WAS THE MAIN FOCUS OF DEFENSES, HIS FG% WASN'T GOOD AT ALL DUE TO THE FACT THAT KOBE NOW HAD TO LEARN HOW TO DEFEAT DOUBLE TEAMS IN 2004-2005, KOBE SHOT 43.3% THAT YEAR.

--sidenote: Kobe's assists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 assists per game to 5.5 assists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.

-------------------
♠ Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.

This is the attitude and style of play during the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ
You don't see that anymore....

Your argument fails in all areas when you failed to mention that the only reason his PPG went up was because he put in the work and effort and ****ing became a better player. Handchecks

[DonDadda59]

Kobe is the GOAT. Period

81. 62 in 3 quarters. Better 3 point shooter. Better rebounder, scorer, more clutch and a better defender.

Carried Shaq to 3 rings. Robbed of 5 mvps. Shutdown Jordan in 2003 all star game. Jordan<Kobe.

More Please

[Da_Realist]

This post is very interesting, IMO, as it shows just how much we put Jordan on a pedestal. The GOAT is an opinion, yet it is widely claimed as a fact that it was Jordan, and no one that claims that is willing to budge from their position. Jordan's greatness is so... revered.... that anything positive on that team HAD to be because of him. It is impossible for most fans to be objective when it comes to anything concerning Jordan.

I'm not pointing out anyone, but that "bias" definitely exists and clouds judgment, especially in this discussion. Playing second fiddle to anyone else, we may be able to recognize greatness, but if you play second fiddle to Jordan, you are a product of his greatness.

Exactly. It is like a cult...This is what annoys some us Pippen fans about MJ fans. MJ is my second favorite player of all-time but I have to criticize him now and then because of this fanaticism.

What is odd is only MJ fans do this. You don't see Magic/Kareem fans saying Worthy and Scott sucked, Bird fans claiming McHale was a scrub without Bird, etc. Even today you see Kobe fans constantly overrating his teammates by claiming Gasol is a top 10 or top 15 player and claiming that Bynum will be a great center. The ONLY fan bases I see who are hellbent on always diminishing their hero's teammates are Jordan and LeBron fans (often one and the same)...

Probably has something to do with this -->

Let's look at how some stars matchup with their teammates while they were on the same team...

Magic 3 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's
Kareem 1 MVP's, 1 Finals MVP's

Bird 3 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's
Cedric Maxwell 1 Finals MVP

Isiah Thomas 1 Finals MVP
Joe Dumars 1 Finals MVP

Hakeem Olajuwon 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's
Teammates 0

Shaq 1 MVP, 3 Finals MVP's
Teammates 0

Tim Duncan 2 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's
Tony Parker 1 Finals MVP

There's not much Magic fans can say about Kareem, for instance, when the man won 6 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's himself. Kareem won an MVP and a Finals MVP (2 different years) while Magic was still on the team. Also, James Worthy bagged a Finals MVP as well in 88. And a lot of people dismiss Norm Nixon on those early 80's Lakers teams when he and Magic both shared point guard duties.

Bird won 3 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's, but Cedric Maxwell snagged a Finals MVP and Mchale would have had one as well if the Celtics had beaten the Lakers in 85 (as it's fairly common knowledge that McHale was the best Celtic for that series.) These contributions happened while Bird and Magic was on the floor.

Jordan 5 MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's
Pippen 0 MVP's, 0 Finals MVP's

These numbers encourage people to deify Jordan, which in turns causes you to exhaustively paste the same post in every thread to "represent" Pippen. Has there ever been such a discrepancy between one top 50 player and his top 50 teammate? Ever? That might be the reason both sides are having such a hard time understanding each other.