On record 'bout Wilt (it's the off season after all)

[Marchesk]

Bill Russell would not be better than DeAndre Jordan in this era.

When Deandre Jordan starts leading the Clippers to multiple titles and winning MVPs, we can discuss him in the same sentence as Bill Russell.

[RightTwoCensor]

When Deandre Jordan starts leading the Clippers to multiple titles and winning MVPs, we can discuss him in the same sentence as Bill Russell.

Different Eras.

I'm talking about skill-wise, I could name up to 20 centers dating back to the 1980s who are more skilled than Russell.

[Marchesk]

Different Eras.

I'm talking about skill-wise, I could name up to 20 centers dating back to the 1980s who are more skilled than Russell.

So you think you could time travel Jordan to the 57, and the Celtics would basically win 11 of 13 titles, with Jordan being awarded 5 MVPs over the likes of Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit.

[LAZERUSS]

Different Eras.

I'm talking about skill-wise, I could name up to 20 centers dating back to the 1980s who are more skilled than Russell.

How "skilled" was Shaq?

[DonDadda59]

Then you obviously don't think much of Kareem, who had far more stacked rosters in '72, '73, '74, '78, and '79, than Wilt did from '60 thru '65, and yet Wilt was carrying those rosters to game seven defeats to the greatest dynasty in NBA history, on two occasions, and then in '67, with an equal supporting cast, just obliterated Russell and his eight-time defending champs.

A prime Kareem, in his ten seasons in the league...ONE ring (and arguably the easiest run to a title in NBA history...and also outplayed by Wilt in the WCF's); TWO Finals, losing the second Finals in a blowout loss on his home floor, and in a game in which he was outplayed by Cowens; two WCF's, getting beaten in six games by Wilt and his Lakers in one of them (and puking all over the floor in the 4th quarter in the clinching loss), and swept by a 49-33 team despite HCA; a second round blowout loss against a team with far less talent; a first round loss against that same team; a first round loss in which he took his 60-22 team down the toilet against a 47-35 team (and the same team that Wilt would slaughter in the very next round); and two seasons in which he couldn't take his teams to the playoffs.

And yet Kareem has 6 rings on his fingers today.

Wilt was tortured by the Celtics for a whole decade and always had the teammates excuse to fall back on until '69 when he had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (both HOFers/ATGs) vs Russell on his literal last legs.

Wilt proceeded to average only 12 PPG and his teammate West won FMVP in a losing effort (only time in History that happened) averaging 40/5/7. It wasn't Dippy's teammates that caused him to lose yet another game 7 in the finals vs Russell and the Celtics.

Meanwhile, Kareem won 5 rings in the 80s, lifting 2 off the Celtics.

Kareem>>>>Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

And yet Kareem has 6 rings on his finger today.

Wilt was tortured by the Celtics for a whole decade and always had the teammates excuse to fall back on until '69 when he had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (both HOFers/ATGs) vs Russell on his literal last legs.

Wilt proceeded to average only 12 PPG and his teammate West won FMVP in a losing effort (only time in History that happened) averaging 40/5/7. Clearly it was Wilt's teammates that caused him to lose yet another game 7 in the finals vs Russell and the Celtics. In the game seven loss...Chamberlain shot .875 from the field, Russell shot .286. Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a .477 to .360 margin...in a two point win.

Meanwhile, Magic won 5 rings in the 80s, with side-kick Kareem contributing significantly in three of them, and even at his best...it was Magic who carried that team to a title with a clinching game six performance of 42-15-7...all while Kareem watched from his couch. Magic lifted 2 off the Celtics, and it should have been three.

Magic >>> Kareem.

Fixed...

BTW, please provide us all here Baylor's numbers in LA's four losses in the '69 Finals...as well as Wilt's and Russell's in that game seven.

[RightTwoCensor]

So you think you could time travel Jordan to the 57, and the Celtics would basically win 11 of 13 titles, with Jordan being awarded 5 MVPs over the likes of Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit.

I'm sorry but who's locking down Jordan?

What team in that generation is giving him a bigger challenge than what he faced in the late 80s and 90s against the Pistons, Knicks, and Jazz?

Jordan was always the Most Dominant Player in the league in the 1990s even though he didn't win the MVP every year. To think that the most skilled player in our game's history couldn't dominate the laughable perimeter defenders of Wilt and Russell's era is blasphemous.

No team in that era is beating a Michael Jordan led squad. He's arguable the greatest mid ranged player in our game's history and arguable the greatest non-Big Man post player in history. I don't see what's stopping Jordan from averaging 50 or 60 PPG (and I didn't even touch on his strength and athleticism which allowed him to finish over the greatest of rim protectors of the 1990s).

Just wanted to post that, don't expect a response.

[DonDadda59]

Fixed...

If you give Magic all the credit... gotta take away all of Wilt's accomplishments post '68.

Jerry West>>>>Wilt.

[RightTwoCensor]

How "skilled" was Shaq?

Footwork and Touch, nothing special. Russell didn't have either to the point where he could average 20 PPG.

[LAZERUSS]

If you give Magic all the credit... gotta take away all of Wilt's accomplishments post '68.

Jerry West>>>>Wilt.

Did Kareem win a ring in a post-season in which Magic shot .376 from the field, and then an even worse .325 in the Finals?

I can find a Finals in which Magic won a ring and in which Kareem put up a 13-4 .414 statline, with a game seven of 4 pts, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rbs, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs in his 29 minutes, and getting destroyed by Laimbeer and Salley.

Furthermore, please provide us all here West's playoff numbers in the '71 post-season. And then West's numbers in the '73 Finals. Hell, how about BOTH Wilt's and West's numbers (as well as Reed's and Frazier's) in game seven of the '70 Finals.

[DonDadda59]

Did Kareem win a ring in a post-season in which Magic shot .376 from the field, and then an even worse .325 in the Finals?

The skill level in the league had grown exponentially by the 80s in the post merger, post racial quota era. Guys could do things like dribble with their off hand and could actually shoot.

I can find a Finals in which Magic won a ring and in which Kareem put up a 13-4 .414 statline, with a game seven of 4 pts, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rbs, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs in his 29 minutes, and getting destroyed by Laimbeer and Salley.

You mean when Kareem was 40? What about when Wilt averaged 11.7 PPG in the finals at 32 years old in yet another game 7 loss in the finals to Bill Russell and the Celtics

[Marchesk]

I'm sorry but who's locking down Jordan?

You mean Deandre Jordan?

No team in that era is beating a Michael Jordan led squad. He's arguable the greatest mid ranged player in our game's history and arguable the greatest non-Big Man post player in history.

So you want to talk MJ instead. Okay. The Celtics had a HOF SG in Sam Jones. He wasn't MJ, but he was good. What made the Celtics all-time winners was Russell. Replace Russell with Jordan and who do the Celtics have inside to go against Wilt and the other HOF centers back then? Jordan/Sam Jones combo (if a bit redundant) would be ridiculous, but how many titles were the Lakers winning with West/Baylor on the perimeter tearing up the league? Those two averaged a combined 72 points in one finals and the Lakers still lost.

don't see what's stopping Jordan from averaging 50 or 60 PPG (and I didn't even touch on his strength and athleticism which allowed him to finish over the greatest of rim protectors of the 1990s).

Well Wilt averaged 50/25 and it wasn't enough. Oscar averaged a 30 point triple double, won an MVP over Wilt & Russell, and he never made it to the finals until he was on Kareem's team.

What do you suppose Wilt have done to the Celtics minus Bill Russell? What, is (Michael) Jordan going to guard him? He destroyed the Lakers because they had no one to hold him in check, unfortunately, Wilt never got to play the Lakers in the finals.

I'm not saying that Wilt is better than MJ, rather I'm saying that Russell was the perfect fit for the Celtics back then, and you needed a great big to win titles. The league has changed since then, obviously. But it took until the MJ and the Bulls to recognize that you didn't need a great center, although I don't think they're winning without Grant and Rodman (indispensable defense and rebounding inside otherwise Shaq and Ewing would have owned them down there).

[Dr.J4ever]

And yet Kareem has 6 rings on his fingers today.

Wilt was tortured by the Celtics for a whole decade and always had the teammates excuse to fall back on until '69 when he had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (both HOFers/ATGs) vs Russell on his literal last legs.

Wilt proceeded to average only 12 PPG and his teammate West won FMVP in a losing effort (only time in History that happened) averaging 40/5/7. It wasn't Dippy's teammates that caused him to lose yet another game 7 in the finals vs Russell and the Celtics.

Meanwhile, Kareem won 5 rings in the 80s, lifting 2 off the Celtics.

Kareem>>>>Wilt.

Good debate. Ultimately unresolvable, but entertaining

I am on the side of Kareem>Wilt maybe because I saw Kaj slaughter 76er centers during the early 80s, and Doc couldn't get his NBA title until we had Moses. Let's not forget though that Wilt won a title vs. the Celtic dynasty, no less, in 1967, in what was billed for many years after that as the greatest team ever with the 76ers.

Another point, and this is more for the other thread when Laz was talking about Kaj's peak in the early 70s. Yes, Kaj's peak ATHLETICALLY was probably during the early 70s when he was a very young player, but his below 50% FG shows me what I have been saying here for a long time, Kaj's skyhook accuracy was better during the 80s.

I simply can't imagine a Kaj shooting below 50% in any era against any center. Yes, he was more mobile and a better rebounder during the early 70s, but his skyhook became more accurate and he relied on it more during the 80s than during the 70s. Don't have the stats with me, but I'm pretty sure Kaj had very high 50% plus FG during his best years in the 80s in both the RS and playoffs. This has to be factored in when discussing his duels with Wilt when Kaj was a very young player.

BTW, nice debate and both sides have presented compelling cases. Carry on

[AirFederer]

Why Wilt didn't win more? Why Russel won while Wilt set individual records?

Look no further

[QUOTE]

[scandisk_]

1. strongest - top 10
2.longest/longer than Shaq - yep
3.heaviest/Shaqs equal
4.longest wingspan and standing reach
5.fastest - top 10 for a bigman
6.best endurance - top 10 ever
7.best hops - top 10 for a bigman
8.best powerdunker
9.best post moves
10.bank shot like TD
11.fadeaway like Dirk
12.best scorer, rebounder, shot blocker of all time - top 3 in every category
13.best assisting center - nah
14.never outplayed - check KAJ
15.never chocked/never lost a series he should have won
16.winning mentality on par with MJ - not even close
17.the games (38 or so) Kareem outscored him doesn't count because Wilt had had a knee operation
18.slept with 20000 women -
19.killed a mountain lion with bare hands
20.world class volleyballer, weight lifter and track athlete
21. Ran 40 yards at 4.6 weighing ~345 pounds wearing suit and tie, and barefoot

there you go