1st option building a team: Pierce Or Allen ?

[veilside23]

[COLOR="Magenta"]ill tk the guy who doesnt go 3-19 every other game

and keeps him self in shape

[/COLOR]

lol about keeping in shape if anything a guy who got stabbed 11 times shouldnt have played like PP did ...

[fpliii]

Give me Pierce.

[aboss4real24]

lol about keeping in shape if anything a guy who got stabbed 11 times shouldnt have played like PP did ...

[COLOR="Magenta"]
50 cent was shot 9times in kept in great shape[/COLOR]

[Cold soul]

Da truth

[secund2nun]

Neither are first option caliber players on a title or even title contender team (unless it is a rare balanced team like the 04 Pistons, but that's not really a first option then)

[ProfessorMurder]

Pierce, because he was a better playmaker and ballhandler.

Neither are first option caliber players on a title or even title contender team (unless it is a rare balanced team like the 04 Pistons, but that's not really a first option then)

That must be why they were both first options on deep playoff runs before being on the same team? Stop it.

[secund2nun]

Pierce, because he was a better playmaker and ballhandler.



That must be why they were both first options on deep playoff runs before being on the same team? Stop it.

They both reached the ECF once a in historically weak ECF where they both lost and had no shot of actually winning the title, made the 2nd round once, and then missed the playoffs and lost in the first round every other season until they were traded to Boston.

They can be first options, but not on a team that can win a title or even seriously compete for a title.

[Smoke117]

Neither. Ray Allen is one of my favorite players of all time, but if I'm being honest I don't think either player belongs as your 1st option. If you want to be realistic, Allen had much better success as his teams best player and was basically screwed out of getting to the finals on the Bucks. It took the eventual 2005 championship Spurs 6 games to beat the Sonics too. Pierce never had any real success till Ray and Garnett showed up and frankly was considered a little diva and cry baby during his prime.

[Real Men Wear Green]

For me its a tough one. Pierce has done nothing before big 3.
He was putting up empty stats while not being able to do anything other than losing one or two times in early rounds of playoffs.

Neither. Ray Allen is one of my favorite players of all time, but if I'm being honest I don't think either player belongs as your 1st option. If you want to be realistic, Allen had much better success as his teams best player and was basically screwed out of getting to the finals on the Bucks. It took the eventual 2005 championship Spurs 6 games to beat the Sonics too. Pierce never had any real success till Ray and Garnett showed up and frankly was considered a little diva and cry baby during his prime.

Pierce lead the Celtics to the ECF in 2002. And, "diva crybaby?" You mean the guy that didn't miss a game after being stabbed 20+ times?

[CelticBaller]

Neither. Ray Allen is one of my favorite players of all time, but if I'm being honest I don't think either player belongs as your 1st option. If you want to be realistic, Allen had much better success as his teams best player and was basically screwed out of getting to the finals on the Bucks. It took the eventual 2005 championship Spurs 6 games to beat the Sonics too. Pierce never had any real success till Ray and Garnett showed up and frankly was considered a little diva and cry baby during his prime.

Yep, let's act like pierce never led his team to the ECF with a terrible cast of players

[Smoke117]

I just don't like Paul Pierce nor his game, but you can't deny that Ray Allen had more success as his teams best player. They got screwed in that game 7 vs the Sixers in 2001 and should have been in the finals vs the Lakers and like I said...they pushed that 2005 championship Spurs to six games when he was on the Sonics. It's also common knowledge that Pierce had some attitude problems in the mid 2000s.

[D.J.]

Pierce at his best was putting up around 25/6/4 on 44/40/80. He wasn't the most athletic guy out there but he could use his body to get to the hoop and line(got to the line 8-9 times a game before the rule changes), could post up, could hit threes, was a decent playmaker, and could play D.


Ray at his best was around 23/5/4 on 45/41/90. He wasn't the spot up shooter like some think. He could handle the ball, create for himself, was athletic and would dunk in your face, could shoot threes like very few could, and wasn't a bad defender either.


Now with that being said, I'd rather have Pierce. Neither were one dimensional scorers, but Pierce to me was more versatile. He was much better at attacking the hoop and getting to the line, could post up, and his three point shooting ability was very good as well. He was also a better defender than Ray. Pierce's size and skillset also allowed him to create mismatches as he could play the 2 and the 3.


And also to Pierce's credit, he took the 2002 Celtics to the ECF with Antoine Walker jacking up 8 threes a game and no one else averaging double digit points(unless you count Rodney Rogers who arrived at the trade deadline). After Pierce and Walker, Kenny Anderson was the high scorer at 9.6 PPG. Other top players were Tony Delk, Tony Battie, Eric Williams, and Erick Strickland. Then the following year, Pierce led the Celtics to a 1st round upset over Indiana as a 6 seed with Walker jacking up 8 threes a game again and no one else averaging double digit points.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Ray was absolutely a mediocre defender at best. Not the worst but no one was saying he was decent defender. Funny what playing w/ KG will do for ur career

[Killbot]

Allen.

[Smoke117]

Ray was absolutely a mediocre defender at best. Not the worst but no one was saying he was decent defender. Funny what playing w/ KG will do for ur career

Actually I'd say he was a decent one on one defensive player. Considering my favorite player of all time is Scottie Pippen...I know what good defense is and hold it in high regard. I was actually thinking about the Rockets how Dwight can't lift them up like he did the Magic and I've come to the conclusion that defense really starts with THE COACH. The Magic didn't have stellar defensive players, but Stan Van Gundy instilled a very defensive style of coaching that allowed players that were mostly mediocre into a an overall great defensive unit built around Howard. On the Rockets Mchale is not doing that...Dwight is healthy again, but Mchale is just not a defensive coach like Stan was. If the Coach doesn't instill a defensive philosophy there is only so much a defender as good as Dwight is can do.

My point though as far as Ray Allen is that he was never really a bad defensive player. The fact of the matter is the Bucks had no defensive identity at all. They were never lower than 17th while he was on the team and were 26th in 2000 (while being 2nd in offense) and 20th in defense in 2001 while being the number 1 ranked offense. In 2002 they were 23rd in defense while being 8th in offense. In 2003 they were 28th in defense and 1 again in offense that year Allen was traded. Seattle is basically the same exact story...when they had that good run in the 2005 playoffs and took the Spurs to six games who went onto when the championship...while being 27th in defense and 2nd in defense.

I'm not saying Ray Allen was a great defender...because he wasn't. I think he was a good one on one defensive player, but he didn't have that defensive basketball IQ to be any kind of good team defender. It actually takes more work to be a good team defender than one on one. Ray was a pretty good one on one defender he just didn't have the know how and basketball IQ as far as defense goes to be a good team defensive player.

The reason I posted all those numbers was to show that the Bucks nor Sonics put any concept into to defense. The defense starts with the coach and how he runs the team and George Karl and Nate McMillan never pushed their teams defensively. They coached the teams to be effective offensively, but they instilled nothing defensively. When Ray finally went to the Celtics and went to a team where defense was pushed he was a decent to good defender. He was never a great help defender because he just never understood defense like he did offense, but he was a very able one on one defensive player.