What if the Bulls traded Jordan in 1988?

[Roundball_Rock]

How many titles would this team have won in the 90's?

PF Horace Grant or Charles Oakley
SF Scottie Pippen
C Rik Smits
SG Mitch Richmond
PG Kevin Johnson

This almost happened with the Bulls. The Bulls seriously considered trading Jordan to the Clippers. Sterling wanted a big draw to compete with the Lakers and Magic. What bigger draw was there than MJ? The Bulls believed they could win a championship faster without a player who, er, "dominated the ball" less (Krause: "If we had Akeem [Hakeem] Olajuwon we would already have won a championship by now) who also was "not very nice" to his teammates and didn't listen to the coach. The idea was to trade MJ for high draft picks to the Clippers and then use them to select Smits and Richmond. With MJ gone the ball would be freed up, and they would have depth, so they could go after a legit PG like Kevin Johnson. Krause believed they could have obtained Johnson from the Cavs for either Oakley or Grant. Keep in mind KJ was a 9/2/5.5 player in 88' so it is more feasible than it looks.

Alternatively, with Smits taken with their first or second pick they would have no need to use their original pick (#11) on Will Perdue. They would be set at PF, SF, C, SG. That leaves PG. They could have taken Rod Strickland with that pick.

The Bulls would have (under the KJ scenario) the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG (obviously MJ was the best and Drexler also had a case over Richmond), second or third best PG (Payton was the best and Stockton also had a case over prime KJ), and two all-star level big men who were top 10 at their positions in the 90's. Three superstars and two very good big men!

This is the Bulls' side of the equation. What would have become of Jordan if he were on the Clippers? He would have made them a big attraction, kind of like Gretzky did with the Kings but how much would he have won there? Would he have tolerated perennial mediocrity there or demanding a trade? If so, what would be a likely destination for him? Would he be considered the majority GOAT today if he went to the Clippers and never won a ring?

In the end Reinsdorf vetoed a trade solely on financial grounds: MJ was worth too much $$$$ in fan attendance.

[Samurai Swoosh]

In the end Reinsdorf vetoed a trade solely on financial grounds: MJ was worth too much $$$$ in fan attendance.

It was also worth too much in that it resulted in 6 NBA Championships

And if it weren't for a 2 year hiatus, possibly 8 Championships

And if the team wasn't broken up, and the old Bulls played in a shortened NBA season ... 9 is definetely a possibility as well.

See all the hypotheticals running wild in this thread and making hypothetical babies?

As we all know, Pippen probably wouldn't have been near the caliber player he turned out to be without Jordan. So a 1988 and onward team without Jordan, we have no clue what they would be.

[Shih508]

fatal

bulls would had became like Sixers today lol

[Da_Realist]

Which ultimately resulted in 6 NBA Championships

And if it weren't for a 2 year hiatus, possibly 8

And if the team wasn't broken up, and the old Bulls played in a shortened NBA season ... 9 is definetely a possibility as well.

See all the hypotheticals running wild in this thread and making hypothetical babies?

Plus there's no way Pippen becomes the best SF of the 90's without MJ.

While Jordan’s torrid scoring would slightly slow over the years and he learned to put greater reliance on teammates, it was the endless practice sessions that Pippen said in which the greatest improvements were made.

“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

Pippen knew he had room for improvement, and he focused on getting stronger as a player, and becoming a better passer and ballhandler. He worked on his shooting as well, and his efforts paid off in the 1988 playoffs, when he claimed a spot in the starting lineup.

“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better. I came into a situation where I had some good coaches who really understood the defensive end of the game. They taught me things that made a difference.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordan...en_090910.html

[HylianNightmare]

don't live in the world of if's

you get too many crazy scenarios

[Roundball_Rock]

SS, Jordan retired prematurely twice. Mitch Richmond wouldn't have, especially not strangely retiring a few days before the preseason. Perhaps they could have won more with this lineup? Who would be better than them in the 90's?

Relax. There was a thread a few months ago about Houston having Hakeem/Jordan/Drexler--which almost happened.

don't live in the world of if's you get too many crazy scenarios

The Clippers trade was on the table, strongly considered by the team until Reinsdorf vetoed it on financial grounds (they believed they would be more likely to win championship with the trade).

[kshutts1]

don't live in the world of if's

you get too many crazy scenarios

I agree with the sentiment of the thread..

*WARNING* the following may spark more Pippen/Jordan debate, etc, so please keep an even head, I'm not trying to start anything
*END WARNING*

I LOATHE saying this.. I HATE saying this.. but I must defend my favorite player: Jordan would not have been the same player without Pippen, either. Sure, he had the statistics early in his career, and we can ASSUME he would have won at least one title in his career.. but 6? And 6 FMVPs? Etc, etc...

That has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.. just my favoritism coming out to defend Pip from those that say that Pippen wouldn't have been the player he was without Jordan (true, but keep in mind the other side of the coin, please).

[Roundball_Rock]

I LOATHE saying this.. I HATE saying this.. but I must defend my favorite player: Jordan would not have been the same player without Pippen, either. Sure, he had the statistics early in his career, and we can ASSUME he would have won at least one title in his career.. but 6? And 6 FMVPs? Etc, etc...

That has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.. just my favoritism coming out to defend Pip from those that say that Pippen wouldn't have been the player he was without Jordan (true, but keep in mind the other side of the coin, please).

Would MJ be top 10 all-time with 0 rings?

The "MJ made Pippen" thing is a myth. Pippen improved in his first few years. Guess what? So does nearly everyone. Does this mean Ewing "made" Yao? Pippen's improvement tracked with the natural trajectory of a young player.

[Samurai Swoosh]

SS, Jordan retired prematurely twice. Mitch Richmond wouldn't have, especially not strangely retiring a few days before the preseason.

What does that have to do with anything? Jordan was a superior player to Mitch Richmond in virtually everyway ... Like there is no point even debating better because no case can be made. He surely wouldn't be able to bring the intangibles and will to win, killer instinct, and never say die attitude to the Bulls that MJ brought.

He surely wouldn't be able to shape a mentally weak Scottie Pippen as he was early in his career into the player he eventually became.

You basically composited a 90's all star on the team, not taking into account how they came to be as players within context. Your center piece, Scottie Pippen, wouldn't have been the player you're expecting him to be without Jordan.

Where is the leadership and strong willed mentality on that team? It's certainly not coming from a 1988 Scottie Pippen.

Perhaps they could have won more with this lineup? Who would be better than them in the 90's?

Doubt it. But it still resides in "could've / would've / should've" land ...

If the Clippers got away with that trade, it would've been the biggest steal of all time since Ruth got sent to the Yankees by the Red Sox. We all know Krause was an egotistical blundering idiot when it came to managing. He was always insedious with envy that the Bulls success was always directly attributed to MJ and not him. As he said, managment wins championships ...

Krause believed alot of dumb thoughts over the course of his tenure. Like Eddy Curry / Tyson Chandler being a better player than Elton Brand. Crumbs has always been a joke.

[kshutts1]

Would MJ be top 10 all-time with 0 rings?

The "MJ made Pippen" thing is a myth. Pippen improved in his first few years. Guess what? So does nearly everyone. Does this mean Ewing "made" Yao? Pippen's improvement tracked with the natural trajectory of a young player.

Again.. to go off on a tangent, MJ would not likely have 6 rings, nor would he likely have 0, in a different situation.

MJ would likely not be MJ, and Pippen would still be a fabulous player, whose historical greatness could fluctuate greatly in EITHER direction.

I assume MJ (who strikes me as Lebron with more of a killer instinct) would get at least 2-3 titles in his years playing ball... which still puts him in the top 10, assuming his statistical production stays the same. Consensus GOAT he would not be, though.

As for Pippen, he could really blossom without Jordan, and with a better shooter on the wing, and a PG that knows how to, and looks to, set him up better than Jordan did... or he could become not-as-great with most likely less than 6 titles, and his numbers may be hurt playing with another ball-dominant player in KJ, plus weaker supporting defenders in Mitch and KJ...

All around, WAY too many variables to consider... Pippen has the most to lose, and gain, from the scenario though (after the Bulls), as Jordan would still be top 10 all-time.

[guy]

How many titles would this team have won in the 90's?

PF Horace Grant or Charles Oakley
SF Scottie Pippen
C Rik Smits
SG Mitch Richmond
PG Kevin Johnson

This almost happened with the Bulls. The Bulls seriously considered trading Jordan to the Clippers. Sterling wanted a big draw to compete with the Lakers and Magic. What bigger draw was there than MJ? The Bulls believed they could win a championship faster without a player who, er, "dominated the ball" less (Krause: "If we had Akeem [Hakeem] Olajuwon we would already have won a championship by now) who also was "not very nice" to his teammates and didn't listen to the coach. The idea was to trade MJ for high draft picks to the Clippers and then use them to select Smits and Richmond. With MJ gone the ball would be freed up, and they would have depth, so they could go after a legit PG like Kevin Johnson. Krause believed they could have obtained Johnson from the Cavs for either Oakley or Grant. Keep in mind KJ was a 9/2/5.5 player in 88' so it is more feasible than it looks.

Alternatively, with Smits taken with their first or second pick they would have no need to use their original pick (#11) on Will Perdue. They would be set at PF, SF, C, SG. That leaves PG. They could have taken Rod Strickland with that pick.

The Bulls would have (under the KJ scenario) the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG (obviously MJ was the best and Drexler also had a case over Richmond), second or third best PG (Payton was the best and Stockton also had a case over prime KJ), and two all-star level big men who were top 10 at their positions in the 90's. Three superstars and two very good big men!

This is the Bulls' side of the equation. What would have become of Jordan if he were on the Clippers? He would have made them a big attraction, kind of like Gretzky did with the Kings but how much would he have won there? Would he have tolerated perennial mediocrity there or demanding a trade? If so, what would be a likely destination for him? Would he be considered the majority GOAT today if he went to the Clippers and never won a ring?

In the end Reinsdorf vetoed a trade solely on financial grounds: MJ was worth too much $$$$ in fan attendance.

Not saying you're lying, but where did you hear this? You have a link? I find it far-fetched that they were going to trade Jordan for just a few draft picks, when they could've gotten way more for a guy in the prime of his career who just won MVP and 2 scoring titles . The whole team is completely different in this case. Pippen and Grant would probably still become great, but I don't think they develop the same. KJ was always battling injuries throughout his career. I'd say that this team still very talented regardless, and if they get Phil, I'd say they could win 2-3 titles assuming everything else stays the same, which it wouldn't but its too hard to speculate further. Keyword is "could", cause none of those guys really brought the intangibles that Jordan had. None of them had the killer instinct, intensity, and focus to close out and have big playoff games on a regular basis like Jordan did. As far as Jordan goes, no way he stays with the Clippers.

[Roundball_Rock]

What does that have to do with anything? Jordan was a superior player to Mitch Richmond in virtually everyway ...

You evidently didn't read the OP.

Of course MJ>Richmond. I said it in the OP. Read the OP and look at the lineup they were looking at if they traded MJ. Richmond+Smits+Kevin Johnson>just Jordan.

It wouldn't have been a big steal. It would have been an equal trade. The Clipper's agenda was to make money by using MJ to sell tickets. The Bulls agenda was to win championships. With Pippen/Richmond/Johnson/Smits/Grant or Oakley they would win multiple championships and dominate the 90's. MJ would not be "MJ". Like I said, would he even be top 10 all-time if he won 0 rings with the Clippers? The trade looks unfathomable now only because of hindsight and MJ becoming the majority GOAT (because the Bulls started winning).

Krause was right. He drafted Jordan, Pippen, and Grant. He acquired Rodman and Kukoc. Surely you don't believe MJ won all by himself. Imagine MJ without Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Kukoc.

Great point, KShutts. Pippen could go either way. He could have fell down the all-time ranks or he could have moved up as the best player on the dominant team of the 90's. It would come down to how many rings they won. Winning 2-3 as the "# 1" carries more weight with people than winning 6 as the "#2". He would move up if they won multiple rings. If they won 6+ then he would be top 15 and maybe be knocking on the door of the top 10 (if he had a full prime as the best player on his team, and in this scenario his team would be the best team of the decade, he likely would have a MVP or two). Of course, if they never won a ring he would be 35-40th.

I think MJ would have won one or two rings under this scenario--if he got out of LA at some point. If he remained with the Clippers he wouldn't have won anything. Who would he have there? A decent team with prime Ron Harper and prime Danny Manning but is that team going to beat LA, Portland, or Phoenix? Then after 94' he would have nothing as Manning would be gone, Dominique was past his prime by 95', Harper went from a 20 ppg scorer to a role player after 94', etc.

All in all I agree with you, KShutts. Good post.

[Rekindled]

You evidently didn't read the OP.

Of course MJ>Richmond. I said it in the OP. Read the OP and look at the lineup they were looking at if they traded MJ. Richmond+Smits+Kevin Johnson>just Jordan.

It wouldn't have been a big steal. It would have been an equal trade. The Clipper's agenda was to make money by using MJ to sell tickets. The Bulls agenda was to win championships. With Pippen/Richmond/Johnson/Smits/Grant or Oakley they would win multiple championships and dominate the 90's. MJ would not be "MJ". Like I said, would he even be top 10 all-time if he won 0 rings with the Clippers? The trade looks unfathomable now only because of hindsight and MJ becoming the majority GOAT (because the Bulls started winning).

Krause was right. He drafted Jordan, Pippen, and Grant. He acquired Rodman and Kukoc. Surely you don't believe MJ won all by himself. Imagine MJ without Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Kukoc.

Great point, KShutts. Pippen could go either way. He could have fell down the all-time ranks or he could have moved up as the best player on the dominant team of the 90's. It would come down to how many rings they won. Winning 2-3 as the "# 1" carries more weight with people than winning 6 as the "#2". He would move up if they won multiple rings. If they won 6+ then he would be top 15 and maybe be knocking on the door of the top 10 (if he had a full prime as the best player on his team, and in this scenario his team would be the best team of the decade, he likely would have a MVP or two). Of course, if they never won a ring he would be 35-40th.

I think MJ would have won one or two rings under this scenario--if he got out of LA at some point. If he remained with the Clippers he wouldn't have won anything. Who would he have there? A decent team with prime Ron Harper and prime Danny Manning but is that team going to beat LA, Portland, or Phoenix? Then after 94' he would have nothing as Manning would be gone, Dominique was past his prime by 95', Harper went from a 20 ppg scorer to a role player after 94', etc.

All in all I agree with you, KShutts. Good post.

Rod Thorn drafted Jordan

[triangleoffense]

Taking Jordan away from the Bulls would be like taking fisher away from the Jazz, and then the Lakers. Jazz went to the WCF with fisher, next year they barely made the playoffs. Lakers went to the finals twice in a row as soon as fisher came back to LA. It's the mentality of a player that makes him great. There are plenty of players who have the same talent and skill set as kobe bryant (the same cannot be said of lebron because he is a freak of nature physically) but there are none who has the same mental capacity. His perservance, work ethnic, basketball IQ, mental awareness, all of the mental intangibles that makes a player become more than a top-tier player Kobe Bryant has.

[Da_Realist]

I agree with the sentiment of the thread..

*WARNING* the following may spark more Pippen/Jordan debate, etc, so please keep an even head, I'm not trying to start anything
*END WARNING*

I LOATHE saying this.. I HATE saying this.. but I must defend my favorite player: Jordan would not have been the same player without Pippen, either. Sure, he had the statistics early in his career, and we can ASSUME he would have won at least one title in his career.. but 6? And 6 FMVPs? Etc, etc...

That has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.. just my favoritism coming out to defend Pip from those that say that Pippen wouldn't have been the player he was without Jordan (true, but keep in mind the other side of the coin, please).

During his career, Jordan was getting GOAT mentions before he won a ring. From his peers at that. And after he retired with only 3 titles, he was widely regarded as such.

Now...after time passes and memories fade, pure numbers hold much more emphasis on how a player is judged.

So I think you're wrong...and right. Wrong in that during his time, when people were actually watching him play, the number of titles and Finals MVP's he won was not the deciding factor in determining whether he was the greatest to play.

But you're right in that...since his time, the biggest case for MJ being the GOAT is his numbers.

Without Pippen, and assuming MJ didn't have as much team success, he still would have likely been labeled as GOAT even without 6 titles/6 FMVP's during his time -- as long as he won a couple. But years later, posters like RR -- who makes convincing posts about players he didn't really see too much based on statistical data - would have long killed that goose.