Will the CP3/Nash/Lebron/Harden/Westbrok brand of ball-dominance ever win organicaly?

[3ball]

Why did Jordan win only 6 rings while the G.O.A.T. Bill Russell won 11?

^^^ Happy to answer that

There was no spacing or viable team offense prior to the 3-point line, which allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most.

But spacing and team offense improved once the 3-point line was instituted in 1980.. Since then, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players, which means that Russell wouldn't be an MVP-caliber player in the modern era..

Accordingly, MJ's 6 rings as "the man" is the most in the modern era/3-pointer basketball... by far... 2nd place has only 3 rings as "the man".. So MJ won as "the man" twice as much as anyone in modern history, while being #1 in PPG, efficiency rating, championship record, and clutch - that's why he's goat and no one will ever come close.

[Smoke117]

The Rockets were clearly on their way to winning the 2018 championship before CP3's injury, so...yes...?

[3ball]

The Rockets were clearly on their way to winning the 2018 championship before CP3's injury, so...yes...?

this is a tough spot.

if I agree with you that the rockets would've won, then it's a knock on Lebron that he couldn't beat the Durant Warriors with a better cast than Harden had

But if I disagree, then I'm saying the warriors would've won regardless of cp3 injury and Lebron's loss with a better cast than Harden doesn't look so bad.

hard to decide...

but i'll go with the first one - I agree with you - without the cp3 injury in 2018, the rockets would've gotten the first "organic" ring where the franchise player employs a ball-dominator, low-team-assist brand... Historically, guys like Lebron, Westbrook, CP3, Nash and others all failed to win organically with this brand - but there's a first for everything - and Harden would've been it.

So thanks for solving that Smoke... ... the ball-dominator is indeed a career-losing, shit brand, but Harden would've shown that it can win once in a zillion tries... ... again, thanks for helping with this one

[Smoke117]

this is a tough spot.

if I agree with you that the rockets would've won, then it's a knock on Lebron that he couldn't beat the Durant Warriors with a better cast than Harden had

But if I disagree, then I'm saying the warriors would've won regardless of cp3 injury and Lebron's loss with a better cast than Harden doesn't look so bad.

hard to decide...

but i'll go with the first one - I agree with you - without the cp3 injury in 2018, the rockets would've gotten the first "organic" ring where the franchise player employs a ball-dominator, low-team-assist brand... Historically, guys like Lebron, Westbrook, CP3, Nash and others all failed to win organically with this brand - but there's a first for everything - and Harden would've been it.

So thanks for solving that Smoke... ... the ball-dominator is indeed a career-losing, shit brand, but Harden would've shown that it can win once in a zillion tries... ... again, thanks for helping with this one

Yes, obsess about LeBron on a post about the CP3 and Harden Rockets that have nothing to do with him. That's what you do best. Honestly, I'm with those posters that actually believe you hate Jordan and love LeBron considering nobody has done a better job of making Jordan as hateable as you have.

[3ball]

Yes, obsess about LeBron on a post about the CP3 and Harden Rockets that have nothing to do with him. That's what you do best. Honestly, I'm with those posters that actually believe you hate Jordan and love LeBron considering nobody has done a better job of making Jordan as hateable as you have.

no, it's everyone's childish mindset that makes MJ hateable

that mindset includes an ignorance of his game - i.e. "he wasn't that big and the footage doesn't look that great" (translation: "he wasn't the biggest player on the court, nor did he go on long dribble forays for all his points like Lebron, so he didn't seem that good to me")

this lesser mindset also includes the cumbaya human element - "MJ was a dick and just wanted to win.. he didn't give a shit about you like Lebron does, so that makes Lebron better to me"

so enjoy your fraud.. ignorance is bliss I get it

[DoctorP]

Or will the relegation of teammates to spot-up shooters forever suppress teammate development, thus requiring ready-made stars/teams acquired via team-hopping??

Essentially, will these guys always have to team-hop for ready-made teams because their style can't develop a team or elite brand of ball?...

It's a stark contrast from the organic championships that Curry, MJ, Kawhi and Kobe won - aka, guys that are skilled enough to achieve elite production without dominating the ball/reducing teammates to spot-up role... and while playing off of/enhancing teammates
.

That was a team effort. Can't put Curry in that league. Maybe Kawhi. Maybe

[3ball]

That was a team effort. Can't put Curry in that league. Maybe Kawhi. Maybe

Curry's ring in 2015 was among the most organic ever - a shining example of winning an organic ring

klay was a first-time all-star that year - so curry's team wasn't even stacked..

and I've never thought klay/dray was some juggernaut core.. they aren't.. the warriors were a powerful team because curry could get 30 while barely touching the ball, so everyone else had maximum time to move the ball and play to capacity.. if he was getting 30 points by dominating the ball, then the warriors would've been a totally different team and probably looked like one of cp3 or lebron's 50-something win teams.. so a big drop-off.

[pauk]

3ball still at it i see... Ball dominance of that.... brand? A point-guard or a point-forward brand? Guys just... playing point-guard... "ball dominating".... win organically (whatever the **** that means)...

Would made microscopically more sense, but then you have Lebrons name there... who had one of the most impressive (if not the most) championship runs in NBA history, competition/odds/what he had to do / work with+against, go away...

Lebron, Magic, Cousy, Curry, Isiah etc etc... and since you have Lebron there, Pippen / Jordan were of that point-guardish/"ball-dominant" type of brand aswell, especially Jordan, who even played/started Point-Guard many times in his career remember?

Seems to me that brand of "ball-dominance" wins... alot... "organicaly"... 2 of those are GOATs... 3 arguably....

[tontoz]

Nash had a career usage rate of 21. CP3's is 24.

Their ball dominance isn't even close to Kobe at 31.8, or Jordan at 33.

[ArbitraryWater]

will Kawhi win organically this year?

[SpaceJam2]

[3ball]

Nash had a career usage rate of 21. CP3's is 24.

Their ball dominance isn't even close to Kobe at 31.8, or Jordan at 33.

Usage measures shot attempts, not how long someone holds the ball

a catch-and-shoot player like JJ Redick would lead the league in usage if he took 30 shots a game, but his ball-dominance would be zero

Usage isn't the ball-domination measure - time of possession is the measure (and it's tracked on nba.com... of course, Lebron's time of possession is the highest of all-time - no one needs more time to get stats than lebron.. no one hurts ball movement and brand of ball to get stats more than lebron)

[SpaceJam2]

Usage measures shot attempts, not how long someone holds the ball

a catch-and-shoot player like JJ Redick would lead the league in usage if he took 30 shots a game, but his ball-dominance would be zero

Usage isn't the ball-domination measure - time of possession is the measure (and it's tracked on nba.com... of course, Lebron's time of possession is the highest of all-time - no one needs more time to get stats than lebron.. no one hurts ball movement and brand of ball to get stats more than lebron)

No one has the playmaking ability like LeBron. Nobody has a high IQ like LeBron. Nobody is a better ball-handler and scoring combination like LeBron. That's why you see him hold the ball longer than other players. He has the ability to, while most weak players don't.

MJ never had the skill set to hold the ball that long. He would turn it over or make a dumb IQ play

[tontoz]

Usage measures shot attempts, not how long someone holds the ball

a catch-and-shoot player like JJ Redick would lead the league in usage if he took 30 shots a game, but his ball-dominance would be zero

Usage isn't the ball-domination measure - time of possession is the measure (and it's tracked on nba.com... of course, Lebron's time of possession is the highest of all-time - no one needs more time to get stats than lebron.. no one hurts ball movement and brand of ball to get stats more than lebron)

How convenient that it goes back only to 2014.

I watched Jordan play. He was definitely more ball dominant than Nash and Paul. That is why Jordan didn't want a playmaking pg next to him. He liked low usage guys like Paxon and Harper so he could dominate the ball. Jordan used to complain about BJ Armstrong because BJ would actually try to create on his own.

Phil Jackson had to get on his case constantly to get him to pass more. He even started cutting his minutes to make it harder for him to lead the league in scoring which was always a priority for Jordan. Jordan's response was to jack up more shots early in games.

[Vino24]

No one has the playmaking ability like LeBron. Nobody has a high IQ like LeBron. Nobody is a better ball-handler and scoring combination like LeBron. That's why you see him hold the ball longer than other players. He has the ability to, while most weak players don't.

MJ never had the skill set to hold the ball that long. He would turn it over or make a dumb IQ play

3ball has no rebuttal for this. Facts