Guys who were the best offensive + defensive player on a championship team?

[fpliii]

I vaguely remember the Bulls from 84. But id say Jordan was the Bulls best defender from the time he was drafted to about 92. Then he and Pippen were even. Up until 96. Then Pippen assumed the role. I feel jordan was still a great Defender through 98, but he no longer needed to exert so much energy with Ron Harper there.

hm, so who are your picks for each of the championship seasons? it sounds like:

91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan/Pippen
93 - Jordan/Pippen
96 - Jordan/Pippen
97 - Pippen
98 - Pippen

is that correct?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Off the top of my head?

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, possibly 1982 Kareem (Cooper enters the discussion for '82 defensively)
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan (Robinson has an argument for '99 defensively, though, and Manu was arguably the Spurs best offensive player in the '05 playoffs, but in general, I'd build my offense around Duncan, which the Spurs did)
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
Possibly 2008 Garnett (Debatable whether he was better than Pierce offensively)
2012 Lebron

There are other debatable years such as Reed/Frazier in '70. I might lean towards Reed, he was their first option and all-defenisve 1st team, but was he definitely better than DeBuscherre and Frazier defensively or Frazier offensively?

Then there's possibly Frazier in '73, but was he better than DeBuscherre defensively? I'm not convinced.

Elvin Hayes in '78 is debatable, but we can't forget about Bob Dandridge

I suppose Kareem is still in the discussion for '85, but an excellent case can be made for Magic offensively by this point and Cooper's argument defensively probably got stronger

Kobe also has an argument in '09, he stepped up his defense in the '09 playoffs, though he was mostly an individual defender, his help defense on Howard was impressive. But did he make a bigger impact than Gasol's length defensively? And Gasol also did an excellent job on Howard defensively, and Ariza is in the discussion defensively.

Bird '86

Bird wasn't the best defender on that team. I'd probably go with McHale, but there was DJ, Walton and Parish as well.

Forgot one more:

Moses Malone '83

Nah, that was probably either Bobby Jones or Mo Cheeks.

[fpliii]

Off the top of my head?

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, possibly 1982 Kareem (Cooper enters the discussion for '82 defensively)
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan (Robinson has an argument for '99 defensively, though, and Manu was arguably the Spurs best offensive player in the '05 playoffs, but in general, I'd build my offense around Duncan, which the Spurs did)
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
Possibly 2008 Garnett (Debatable whether he was better than Pierce offensively)
2012 Lebron

There are other debatable years such as Reed/Frazier in '70. I might lean towards Reed, he was their first option and all-defenisve 1st team, but was he definitely better than DeBuscherre and Frazier defensively or Frazier offensively?

Then there's possibly Frazier in '73, but was he better than DeBuscherre defensively? I'm not convinced.

Elvin Hayes in '78 is debatable, but we can't forget about Bob Dandridge

I suppose Kareem is still in the discussion for '85, but an excellent case can be made for Magic offensively by this point and Cooper's argument defensively probably got stronger

Kobe also has an argument in '09, he stepped up his defense in the '09 playoffs, though he was mostly an individual defender, his help defense on Howard was impressive. But did he make a bigger impact than Gasol's length defensively? And Gasol also did an excellent job on Howard defensively, and Ariza is in the discussion defensively.



Bird wasn't the best defender on that team. I'd probably go with McHale, but there was DJ, Walton and Parish as well.



Nah, that was probably either Bobby Jones or Mo Cheeks.

if you had to restrict your list to guys for which there's no argument for other players, what does it look like? not that I agree/disagree, but I want to try to put together a definitive list that won't have any detractors

[Overdrive]

Threepeat Shaq
Repeat Hakeem
09 Kobe
12 Lebron

I don't agree with Duncan for 1999

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan '91-'93
Duncan '03, '05 (and some would say '99)
Shaq '00, '01 (in terms of defensive impact)
Lebron '12
Kobe '09
KAJ '71, '80
Wilt '67

[97 bulls]

hm, so who are your picks for each of the championship seasons? it sounds like:

91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan/Pippen
93 - Jordan/Pippen
96 - Jordan/Pippen
97 - Pippen/Jordan
98 - Pippen

is that correct?

Thats about right except the bolded. It was really a 1/A,B type thing most of their career during the Dynasty

[ShaqAttack3234]

if you had to restrict your list to guys for which there's no argument for other players, what does it look like? not that I agree/disagree, but I want to try to put together a definitive list that won't have any detractors

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, 1982 Kareem
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan
2012 Lebron

Some might question '82 Kareem, but I'm not sure Michael Cooper in less than 30 mpg topped Kareem as a 7'3" presence and the 3rd leading shot blocker in the regular season with almost 3 per game and 3+ in the playoffs.

It's your call, perhaps by me needing to explain that one, it might not be clear.

Jordan '91-'93
Duncan '03, '05 (and some would say '99)
Shaq '00, '01 (in terms of defensive impact)
Lebron '12
Kobe '09
KAJ '71, '80
Wilt '67

2 questions, who was better than Shaq defensively on the '02 Lakers? Shaq wasn't quite as mobile as '00 and '01, but the Lakers were first in opponents FG% and first in opponents FG% in the paint in '02.

And who was better than Duncan offensively in '07?

[Jacks3]

Odom/Ariza were the best defenders on the 09 Laker team.

[Harison]

Possibly 2008 Garnett (Debatable whether he was better than Pierce offensively)

Pierce was better in the Regular season, Garnett was better in the Playoffs, and thats what matters in the Championship.

Lets see, KG was leading in '08 Playoffs in points, much better efficiency, much better in the 4Q and in the clutch.

Bird wasn't the best defender on that team. I'd probably go with McHale, but there was DJ, Walton and Parish as well.

'86 Playoffs:

Larry Bird: 103 DRtg, 1.6 DWS, 18.0 DRB%
Kevin McHale: 105 DRtg, 1.2 DWS, 15.0 DRB%
Danny Ainge: 105 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 8.5 DRB%
Dennis Johnson: 106 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 7.6 DRB%
Robert Parish: 104 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 18.5 DRB%

Walton was a bench player.

McHale did only one thing better - blocks, Parish - in blocks and minor edge in DRB, Ainge and DJ - steals.

Its obvious it was a team effort, but its also obvious that Bird had a slight overall edge over everyone else in D.

[Harison]

Nah, that was probably either Bobby Jones or Mo Cheeks.

Are you serious? Moses blows Jones and Cheeks out of the water across defensive stats. Unless you imply it was intangibles of a guard (!) and PF, which impacted defense more than a center could.

[CJ Mustard]

@ Pierce being a better offensive player than KG in 08. His ONLY possible argument is that he was a (slightly) better scorer than KG IN THE REGULAR SEASON. And even then, he only averaged less than a point higher than KG and did it on a much lower percentage.

In the playoffs, Pierce has no argument at all. KG averaged more points on a higher percentage. Not to mention there's more to offense than scoring, and KG is by far the better overall offensive player as well.

Someone please give me one reasonable argument for Pierce being the Celtics best offensive player in 2008.

[ThunderStruk022]

I'd say Jordan was for at least the '91 and '92 championships and I think he has a case for '93 as well. But it may not be by a very big margin during any of the first 3-peat years for you to say, without a doubt, he was the best defensive player. Offense was obvious.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Pierce was better in the Regular season, Garnett was better in the Playoffs, and thats what matters in the Championship.

Lets see, KG was leading in '08 Playoffs in points, much better efficiency, much better in the 4Q and in the clutch.

I said it was debatable because many would call Pierce the better scorer, although KG was still at least as much of the 1st option. Pierce was also important as a playmaker, though KG was an excellent passer.

I don't think it's unreasonable to call them debatable as offensive players. KG was clearly their best player overall, though.

'86 Playoffs:

Larry Bird: 103 DRtg, 1.6 DWS, 18.0 DRB%
Kevin McHale: 105 DRtg, 1.2 DWS, 15.0 DRB%
Danny Ainge: 105 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 8.5 DRB%
Dennis Johnson: 106 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 7.6 DRB%
Robert Parish: 104 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 18.5 DRB%

Walton was a bench player.

McHale did only one thing better - blocks, Parish - in blocks and minor edge in DRB, Ainge and DJ - steals.

Its obvious it was a team effort, but its also obvious that Bird had a slight overall edge over everyone else in D.

Defensive Rating for individuals and defensive win shares? These are absolutely horrible stats that are estimates.

If they were based on play by play data, +/- or how their defensive assignments fared, I'd respect them more, even though those could still be flawed, but they're not.

I can't understand how anyone could consider these stats useful after reading basketball-reference's explanation for how they're calculated.

McHale wasn't only better than Bird at blocking shots, he was a much better individual defender. He was the guy shutting down Nique in the '86 ECSF, not Bird. DJ was also not just better at steals, he was also a better individual defender.

And shot blocking isn't a minor difference either.

I'm not one of those who think Bird was a bad defender. Qiote the contrary, his help/team defense was excellent, whether it was anticipation in general, playing the passing lanes, making the proper rotations and going straight up to challenge shots inside.

But he was not the best defender on the Celtics.

Are you serious? Moses blows Jones and Cheeks out of the water across defensive stats. Unless you imply it was intangibles of a guard (!) and PF, which impacted defense more than a center could.

Defensive stats? The same garbage defensive win shares and defensive rating you used before that led to an incorrect conclusion?

Moses wasn't some proven defensive rankings. His Houston teams were always below average without exceptions and on multiple occasions the worst/second worst defensive team.

It was only when he joined a Philly team that was already elite defensively that he was on good defensive teams.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

@ Pierce being a better offensive player than KG in 08. His ONLY possible argument is that he was a (slightly) better scorer than KG IN THE REGULAR SEASON. And even then, he only averaged less than a point higher than KG and did it on a much lower percentage.

In the playoffs, Pierce has no argument at all. KG averaged more points on a higher percentage. Not to mention there's more to offense than scoring, and KG is by far the better overall offensive player as well.

Someone please give me one reasonable argument for Pierce being the Celtics best offensive player in 2008.

He won the Finals MVP and was carried off court and rolled out in a wheelchair.

[fpliii]

Thats about right except the bolded. It was really a 1/A,B type thing most of their career during the Dynasty

what about Rodman in 96/97?

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, 1982 Kareem
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan
2012 Lebron

Some might question '82 Kareem, but I'm not sure Michael Cooper in less than 30 mpg topped Kareem as a 7'3" presence and the 3rd leading shot blocker in the regular season with almost 3 per game and 3+ in the playoffs.

It's your call, perhaps by me needing to explain that one, it might not be clear.

thanks, I'm gonna go through now and add more guys to the OP

I'd say Jordan was for at least the '91 and '92 championships and I think he has a case for '93 as well. But it may not be by a very big margin during any of the first 3-peat years for you to say, without a doubt, he was the best defensive player. Offense was obvious.

97 Bulls agree about 91, but he has Pippen as a co-leader on defense in 92 and 93

maybe you guys can discuss this in this thread, it would be a valuable discussion