The case against Bill Russell as GOAT

[Pointguard]

Bill Russell was a great winner but lets look a little deeper. Greatest of All time might be a too high of designation. I’ll alphabetize so the counter arguments can be presented.

A. Russell did not possess an offensive game that could be compared to anybody in top 15 list. (A functional list of 20 players would be MJ, Wilt, Jabbar, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Oscar, West, Malone, Barkley, Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, Dr J, D Robinson, Lebron, KG)
B. He averaged 15 ppg in the regular season in the fastest era of the game. This is stunning when you consider that his length and speed should have gotten him 5 or 6 baskets alone and then you figure he would get 4 or 5 points on the line. He never averaged over 19ppg. He averaged one point higher in the post season.
C. His shooting percentage was low, despite him playing it flat out safe. He only shot 44% and in films Wilt doesn’t pretend to go out more than 10feet to guard him. So 44% at close range exhibits no offensive game. He shot worse in the playoffs.

D. Someone give me evidence that he worked on his game. His foul shooting was bad 561 and it didn’t steady. His offense stayed average for that time. No post moves. In one recent clip posted on these boards provides 24 minutes of action of Bill and Wilt. Not one time does Russell put the ball down and look comfortable. He dribbles, with hard concentration and with the off hand ready to snatch the ball up. That should not be, while you are coming out of your prime???
E. Could you imagine scaling his game down? At 38 minutes per game he’s at 13ppg and 19. Then we add a generous number for pace would be 10 and 15. Factor in scouting reports, quicker help defenders, his weak right hand. 8ppg and 14 rebounds. And this is a nice scale.

F. Who are the other players in the top 50 that are so lopsided: All defense with little offense. Remind you even D Howard gets criticized for not being offensively developed and he was 20 and 14 at one time.
G. What players in the top 50 would not win consistently with 3 or 4 HOFers???

H. How easy did Russell have it? Russell was usually the 4th highest scorer on his team. On a 36 minute a game ratio he was a remarkable 8th highest scorer or lower on the team 9 out of his 13 years. Amazingly he is 12th once and 13th twice!!! He never ranked in the top 5 in the 36 minute a game ratio in his career. WOW.

I. He wasn’t expected to score at all at the end of games. When they talk about Killer instinct Russell wasn’t the type to deliver the blow like we so often see from MJ, or Kobe. I am sure the opposing team wanted Russell to shoot if he wasn’t 5 feet on the basket.
J. We are talking greatest of all time. Asking Bill Russell to look comfortable with the ball isn’t asking for too much if he’s in the GOAT conversation. Getting the ball in the basket is too much of a chore for him.
Discuss

[KG5MVP]

No one said he was GOAT in the first place.

[tommy3]

No one said he was GOAT in the first place.

Actually many say.

Can't agree more with the OP.

[Yung D-Will]

In before Julbar and G.O.A.T rape this thread

[Desperado]

IMO Kareem is the GOAT, but Russell also has a strong case. 11 rings and 5 MVPs speaks for its self.

Honestly assigning an arbitrary criteria that the top players must be an offensive threat is just naive. I guess this shows the prevailing stat hog mentality and double standards of today's fans. Magic averaged less than 20 PPG, is he worthy to be put in the top 10? John Stockton only averaged 13 PPG is he worthy to be included in the top 15-20?

People put way too much stock on an individuals scoring stats to determine their greatness, especially when such scoring stats (and stats in general) don't tell a complete picture of the player's contributions.

[Desperado]

Also its true that Russell had a poor FG% but you have to take into consideration the entire league back then had a poor FG%.

Why was this?

1. A high tempo offense. For example the average team in '65 (FGA's: 7987) shot about 1400 more shots than a team in '05 (FGA's: 6588)

2. There were less fouls calls. In '65 the average team had 2076 PF's per season. In '05, 1856 personal fouls were called. You have to keep in mind that 1400 more shots were attempted, yet only 200 less fouls called. The result? A lowering of the FG%.

In short, its tougher to score when the defender can hack you around without getting called for a foul.

Now that we got that out of the way, lets clear some things about Russell's lack of offensive skills.

Russell was an amazing rebounder averaging 22 rpg (16+ rpg when adjusted to today's pace and still higher than Rodman's average. He was a good ball handler for a big man, since he often runs the ball after rebounding to get a clear pass down court and start the fast break, and of course a great defender. He was also a great passer; he consistently ranked in the top 10 in assists and that is beyond what you would expect from a center. Not most guards could do that. His scoring was solid at 15ppg on 13 FGA's. Not exactly mind blowing numbers but then everyone on the 60's Celtics didn't have a mind blowing PPG.


Celtics had a structured offense where all 5 guys on the floor would have the opportunity to score. The leading scorer on the Celtics only averaged 22 points and there were 5-6 other guys scoring in double-digits. Bill or anyone else on the Celtics didn't need not to fully exert themselves on offense since the scoring was distributed. Russell had the same shooting percentage as the top two scorers (Jones and Havlicek) on the team. Understand that Red wanted Russell to stay focused more on his rebounding and outlet passing instead of his shooting.

Also back in college, when his coach wasn't pigeonholing him on a defensive and rebounding role, Bill was scoring 20ppg on 52 FG%.


Conclusion: The Reason for Russell's low PPG in the NBA was Russell was given very few opportunities to score (13 FGA)

Reason for Russell's low FG% in the NBA: The physical style of play of his era and the subsequent neglect of his offensive game to focus more on his defensive and rebounding role for the team.

[triangleoffense]

IMO Kareem is the GOAT, but Russell also has a strong case. 11 rings and 5 MVPs speaks for its self.

Honestly assigning an arbitrary criteria that the top players must be an offensive threat is just naive. I guess this shows the prevailing stat hog mentality and double standards of today's fans. Magic averaged less than 20 PPG, is he worthy to be put in the top 10? John Stockton only averaged 13 PPG is he worthy to be included in the top 15-20?

People put way too much stock on an individuals scoring stats to determine their greatness, especially when such scoring stats (and stats in general) don't tell a complete picture of the player's contributions.

Jordan has just as many accomplishments as Kareem does, and then some. And this is all with a weaker team, a lesser hall of fame player (Magic compared to Pippen), and with lesser 3rd/4th option players (Worthy/Cooper/McDoo compared to Rodman/Oakley/Kukoc) This is all for an organization that has never won a title before he came to town (way harder to bring a team that has never won a championship over the hump). This is all not considering that Kareem is at a more impact-full position (center) as far as playoff winning goes compared to Jordan's (guard).

Jordan also played way better defense on quicker, faster athletes. (See Gary Payton)

[ThaRegul8r]

Jordan has just as many accomplishments as Kareem does, and then some. And this is all with a weaker team, a lesser hall of fame player (Magic compared to Pippen), and with lesser 3rd/4th option players (Worthy/Cooper/McDoo compared to Rodman/Oakley/Kukoc)

He had a weaker team because with expansion he was facing weaker teams. You didn't have to face teams with lineups like Magic/Kareem/Worthy/Scott/Cooper, or Bird/McHale/Parish/DJ/Ainge/Walton, or Moses/J/Toney/Cheeks/Jones, so you didn't need that kind of team to win. Less teams = talent being more concentrated than spread out = stronger teams. Let's not neglect to mention that when talking about teams. That's why the Bulls don't stack up historically, but they were good enough to win in the era they played, which is all that matters. You can only beat who's in front of you. It's only in cross-era comparisons where this then becomes an issue.

[Papaya Petee]

There's like two guys on ISH who consider him in the GOAT discussion. Everyone else has him 5th at best...

[Yung D-Will]

There's like two guys on ISH who consider him in the GOAT discussion. Everyone else has him 5th at best...

What?

Where have you been? In fact the people who don't have Bill Russell in their top four are in the very Small minority here.

[SinJackal]

There's like two guys on ISH who consider him in the GOAT discussion. Everyone else has him 5th at best...

I have him 4th behind Wilt, Kareem, and MJ. A strong 4th at that, and I wouldn't debate anyone that had him 2nd or 3rd tbh.. High basketball IQ, changed the game, great rebounder, great defender. Scoring isn't everything. Let's not act like he was Dennis Rodman, the guy scored 15+ a game, not 2-4 a game, and averaged 20+ reb a game in almost every season.

The guy was great.

[Papaya Petee]

What?

Where have you been? In fact the people who don't have Bill Russell in their top four are in the very Small minority here.

Guess were a small minority then. No way in hell Bill Russell is a better basketball player then Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, or Shaq.

Scoring the basketball is still the most pertinent thing in basketball, the team with more points wins the games, not the team with the most rebounds, blocked shots, or most outlet passes. Yes he's the GOAT winner, but not the GOAT player.

I have him 4th behind Wilt, Kareem, and MJ. A strong 4th at that, and I wouldn't debate anyone that had him 2nd or 3rd tbh.. High basketball IQ, changed the game, great rebounder, great defender. Scoring isn't everything. Let's not act like he was Dennis Rodman, the guy scored 15+ a game, not 2-4 a game, and averaged 20+ reb a game in almost every season.

The guy was great.

Was he a better individual player then Bird or Shaq too? More team success, but those two guys were individually more dominant then Russell.

[SinJackal]

Maybe so, but Russel was the ultimate "team player".

Is there nothing to be said for that?

[Papaya Petee]

Maybe so, but Russel was the ultimate "team player".

Is there nothing to be said for that?

Absolutely not, Russell is the GOAT winner and team player.

[Rendezvous32]

There's like two guys on ISH who consider him in the GOAT discussion. Everyone else has him 5th at best...

Quite clear you don't have much of a clue.