Kobe's all-time rank....

[Anaximandro1]

First tier (The greatest legend)
[CODE]Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
[/CODE]

Second tier (Great individual/team player)
[CODE]
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Olajuwon
[/CODE]

Third tier (Great individual player)
[CODE]
Shaq[/CODE]

Fourth tier (Others)
[CODE]Moses Malone
Oscar
Dr J
Kobe
[/CODE]

[brownmamba00]

SMH@ the Magic bashing in this thread

1.Jordan
2.Kareem
3.Russell
4.Magic
5.Shaq
6.Bird
7.Kobe
8.Hakeem
9.Duncan
10.Wilt

[EllEffEll]

Strange to find myself in agreement with some who feel similarly, but I think around 9-12 is a fair position to put Kobe. Top 5? I can't see how he could even be considered seriously for that. Phenomenal talent, but the sport has had better over the years. I think part of what has kept him from coming close to (but still not cracking into) the top 5, is that he hasn't had the ape$hit crazy finals domination. I don't think he's got it in him to do it going forward either.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, this is mine.

[Boston C's]

your silly....MJ's DPOY?....compared to Russell?

MJ's allstar games when No one voted for him?....Compared to Russell who played in an era where he had to fight for his teamates to eat in a desegregated restuarant?.....and so people didn't vote for him

11 NBA Titles
2 NCAA Titles
5MVP's
named 1980 GOAT by the NBA itself
7 Finals MVP's award named after him
at least 6 DPOY awards


vs

6 Titles in 15 years
5MVP's
6FMVP's ( Pippen and Rodman deserved 2 of them_
1 NCAA Title as a role playing Freshman...(choked the other 2 years as the leader/player of the year)
12X allstar despite in 2002 No one voted for him
Slam dunk Title in 88' even though Dominique should have won (MJ did the tired azz freethrowline dunk for a 3rd time )

Russell wins by a lanslide...russell also a better defender and rebounder...Mj jacked up 26 FGA per game and won alot less





2EZ................next

Say what you willl but fact is that what I just showed you Jordans accomplishments trump russells whether you like it or not and lmao to rodman and pippen deserving a finals mvp you have to be on something to make such a ludacris statement... just look at the accomplishments really now... russell 3x all nba first team and dont give me some racial b.s because the only reason he wasn't getting on the teams was because wilt freakin chamberlain always trumped him during the regular season... jordans resume is better whether you like it or not I dont need to say anymore

[Ronaldinho]

How the **** is Kobe at #6 ahead of Duncan,Magic,Wilt and Russell.

Kobe is in that 10-12 range. I mean he's my favorite player ever by far but he wasn't that good.

Can you post your top ten?

Imo, he is top 10 for sure.His range is more like 7-10 than 10-12.The worst spot that i can put Kobe is 10th.

[c3z4r]

Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Olajuwon

That's my top 10

[ShaqAttack3234]

How the **** is Kobe at #6 ahead of Duncan,Magic,Wilt and Russell.

Kobe is in that 10-12 range. I mean he's my favorite player ever by far but he wasn't that good.

Russell is hard for me to rank, his accomplishments are GOAT level(11 rings in 13 seasons, contending all 13 years, 5 MVPs ect.), but as I said, how I think their games would translate across eras is a consideration for me. I'm not sure a player with his skillset could've been an elite player/superstar after the early/mid 70's which is what makes it tough. But out of a respect for what he did accomplish, even with that considered, maybe I should put him at 6.

Wilt was the exact opposite of Russell in terms of that winning intangible, and he also looks considerably less impressive than some would have you believe in the footage that's available making me almost certain his effectiveness would drop in later eras.

And as far as what he did in his own era? Led a team to a horrible 31-49 record when healthy and in his prime. The '65 Warriors were also 11-33 with prime Wilt before trading him. Worst playoff performer of any of the top 10 players and he won just 2 rings, but needed 2 of the most talented teams ever to do it.

You're kind of proving my point though. Excluding 05, 06 and 07, the team dropped out of top 5 3 times, and was never the best offensive team compared to Magic's team being ranked #1 7 times, with quite a few years being lowered due to his injuries. And they both had pretty consistently among the top 3 or 4 talented teams (excluding those 05, 06 and 07 years)
Like I said earlier, I don't really like that sort of break down though. Magic just had a larger offensive impact. The passing difference easily makes much the 5-6 ppg difference, and then some. Would I take Kobe's 06 peak? Probably, but other then that I'd have to say Magic was pretty consistently better.

And yeah, he really was just a bit better. Early on he was a 19 ppg scorer, later on he was a 22 ppg scorer. Was he a lot better half court scorer? Yeah, but not overall, and truthfully, most of his teams didn't really need him to score in the halfcourt that much.

Magic had much more offensive talent around him, though, and the fact that Kobe was much more capable of taking over games himself is a consideration for me. This is another example of us valuing different things, hence the huge disparity on how we view John Stockton.

And I'm not talking about stats when I mention the difference between young Magic and prime Magic as a scorer, it's a noticeable difference to me watching the games.

[jlauber]

Russell is hard for me to rank, his accomplishments are GOAT level(11 rings in 13 seasons, contending all 13 years, 5 MVPs ect.), but as I said, how I think their games would translate across eras is a consideration for me. I'm not sure a player with his skillset could've been an elite player/superstar after the early/mid 70's which is what makes it tough. But out of a respect for what he did accomplish, even with that considered, maybe I should put him at 6.

Wilt was the exact opposite of Russell in terms of that winning intangible, and he also looks considerably less impressive than some would have you believe in the footage that's available making me almost certain his effectiveness would drop in later eras.

And as far as what he did in his own era? Led a team to a horrible 31-49 record when healthy and in his prime. The '65 Warriors were also 11-33 with prime Wilt before trading him. Worst playoff performer of any of the top 10 players and he won just 2 rings, but needed 2 of the most talented teams ever to do it.


Magic had much more offensive talent around him, though, and the fact that Kobe was much more capable of taking over games himself is a consideration for me. This is another example of us valuing different things, hence the huge disparity on how we view John Stockton.

And I'm not talking about stats when I mention the difference between young Magic and prime Magic as a scorer, it's a noticeable difference to me watching the games.

Once again, a complete joke of a post. Chamberlain the WORST playoff performer of the top-10? Let's take a closer look. In Wilt's peak "scoring" seasons, he had four straight post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. Aside from MJ, there is not another player on that list that can match that, including Kareem. BTW, how many 30 ppg post-seasons did Bird have? And over the course of Chamberlain's first half of his career, covering seven seasons, and six post-seasons, all Chamberlain did was AVERAGE 33 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .510...in league's that shot .430 (of course ShaqAttack NEVER mentions that fact.) Oh, and BTW, and keep in mind his awful roster in '63 was so bad that he couldn't make the playoff...with a 44.8 ppg and .528 FG%. Had he made the playoffs that season, he could very well have added another 2-3-4 ppg to his average over that span.

And even ShaqAttack posted these numbers...in Wilt's first NINE seasons, covering eight post-seasons, all Chamberlain did was average 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518 (again...in league's that shot about .430, on average...which means that Wilt was outshooting the league average by nearly 10%!) And, once again, had Wilt made the playoffs in '63, there can be no question that he would have ADDED to those numbers. Incredible...nearly a 30-27-5 .520 AVERAGE over EIGHT straight post-seasons!

So, I find it fascinating that Wilt was the WORST playoff performer, when he AVERAGED a 33-27 .510 over HALF of his post-season career. Give me a list of ANY of other great that averaged that. Give me a list of any other great that even averaged that for ONE full post-season. Give me a list of any other great that even averaged a 25-25 post-season (and on percentages that blew away the league average.) Don't bother looking...you won't find ANY.

Scoring in the post-season? Wilt had those FOUR 33.2+ post-seasons...and ALL WAY over the league average in efficiency. My god, in his '64 post-season, when he took that SAME exact crappy '63 roster all the way to the Finals, all he did was average 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .543 shooting (in a league that shot .433!) Wilt also had post-season series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, and 39 ppg! Again, aside from MJ, who else accomplished that in the top-10? How about 50 point playoff games? Well, take MJ and his EIGHT out of the equation...and guess who is next, with FOUR???? Including a 56-35 game five of a best-of-five series (in a WIN), and a 50-35 game in an elimination game, and against RUSSELL (and again, in a WIN.) BTW, Chamberlain had FOUR post-season series against RUSSELL in which he averaged 30+ ppg.

How about 40-30 playoff games? Give me a list of the all-time top-10 players who accomplished that feat. I have no idea how many times Chamberlain did it, but I KNOW that he had FOUR against RUSSELL alone!

And give me a list of the greats that had a FINALS in which they averaged 20+ ppg, 20+ rpg, and shot .600+. Don't waste your time...there has only been ONE player to accomplish that feat. Yep...Wilt...with a seven game series of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and an eye-popping .625 FG%. Oh, and BTW, give me a list of those other greats that had a 30 ppg, 31 rpg SERIES (which Chamberlain had in a seven game series against Russell in '65.)

BTW, in that Finals, in an elimination game, Chamberlain hung a 45 point, 27 rebound game (and on 20-27 shooting.) Here again, that was nowhere near his best post-season game...but in any case, give me a player who had a Finals game which equaled those numbers. (Well, Russell, at #9 on ShaqAttack's list did have a 30-40 Finals game, in a game seven.)

How about a post-season of 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and on .579 shooting...and against the likes of Russell and Thurmond (whom he held to .358 and .343 shooting, while easily outscoring and outrebounding them.) And included in that entire post-season, were TWO series of averaging a TRIPLE-DOUBLE. Against the Royals that post-season, he averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and shot .612. Against RUSSELL that post-season, he averaged 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg (yes, 32.0 rpg!), 10.0 apg, and on .556 shooting. He also had an entire post-season the very next year in which he averaged 23.7 ppg, 24.7 rpg, 6.5 apg, and on .534 shooting.

How about rebounding in the post-season? Ok, Russell edges in career post-season rebounding, 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg. BUT, Wilt averaged 26 rpg DURING the Russell era. Not only that, but Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in ALL EIGHT of their H2H post-season series...and some by HUGE margins. Wilt's WORST post-season rebounding average was 20.2 rpg. He had EIGHT entire post-seasons of 24.7 rpg, including a 27.2 rpg, 29.1 rpg, and a 30.2 rpg! My god, in his LAST post-season, covering 17 games, he averaged 22.5 rpg (in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg.) Now, Kareem played in the Wilt era for FOUR seasons...and his BEST season was 18.2 (and in the other three he was at 17.0 rpg, 16.8 rpg, a nd 16.2 rpg.) Then, think about this...Wilt averaged that 22.5 rpg in his last post-season. Since then, the next best post-season mark is Kareem's 17.3 rpg in 1977. He was LIGHT-YEARS ahead of EVERYONE in rebounding in the post-season.

Oh, and BTW, Wilt, at WAY past his PRIME, and on a surgically repaired knee battled a PRIME Kareem to a statistical draw in the '71 WCF's. Then, in the very next season, he LED his Lakers to a 4-2 series win over a PRIME Kareem's Bucks...and was UNIVERSALLY hailed as outplaying Kareem in that series. And that was the ONLY series in Chamberlain's 29 post-season series in which he was statistically outplayed...and yet, the OVERWHELMING majority of those that witnessed that series would tell you his IMPACT crushed Kareem and the Bucks. (Kareem shot .414 over the course of the last FOUR games...three of them losses.)

Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

I could SHRED everyone of those players that ShaqAttack claims were BETTER in the post-season, but instead of going page-after-page...let's just compare Bird, who he LAUGHINGLY ranks at #5, while he HILARIOUSLY ranks Chamberlain at #10. Ok, scoring...how many 30 ppg post-seasons did Bird have? ZERO. Wilt had FOUR. FG% shooting? Bird had THREE post-seasons, in TWELVE, in which he shot even 50%. His HIGH was .524. Chamberlain had EIGHT post-seasons BETTER than that, with a high of .579. Rebounding? This is truly laughable (as it is in EVERY comparison with Wilt.) Bird's HIGH playoff average was 14.0 rpg, and he only averaged 10+ in HALF of his post-season career. Once again, Chamberlain played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. Hell, in Wilt's best post-season, he even averaged more assists than Bird did in HIS best post-season (9.2 apg to 8.8 apg.) Aside from FT shooting, (and 3pt shooting, which Bird was awful at in the post-season), Wilt CRUSHED Bird in EVERY facet of the game. And that is before we compare DEFENSIVE IMPACT...in which ONLY Russell was his equal.

And how about these Bird numbers? FIVE entire post-seasons of .450 or WORSE shooting...including .408, .422 and .427! Or the fact that Bird's post-season shooting dropped DRAMATICALLY. He shot .472 in his post-season career (.496 in his regular season career), which is bad enough...but that percentage came in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and averaged .485. But it gets even WORSE. Bird played in FIVE Finals...and he NEVER shot higher than .488, with an AVERAGE of .455, and a LOW series of .419. WAY BELOW the league average. Then, how about this? In his greatest statistical regular season, 1987-88, he had one of his WORST post-seasons, which included shooting .351 against the Pistons (BTW, Magic would averaged 22 ppg on .550 shooting against that SAME Piston team.) My god, Bird had a game seven, in the Finals, he which he shot 6-18. BTW, Bird played in 31 Finals games...and he shot LESS than .398 in ELEVEN of them (he shot 40% or worse in as many games as he did over 50%.) So, Bird was shooting LESS than 40% in over ONE-THIRD of his Finals games (and even UNDER 30% in a few!)


And, as ridiculous as having Bird ranked over Wilt, how about Hakeem at #4 over Wilt at #10????

Hakeem played in EIGHTEEN seasons. And while ShaqAttack criticizes Wilt for his TEAM records, Hakeem PALES in comparison to Wilt. Olajuwon played on only FIVE teams that ever won 50+ games (with a HIGH of 58-24.) He also only took FOUR teams to even the Conference Finals. THREE Finals and TWO rings. Then, he also guided FOUR teams to playoff series losses against lower seeds. And one of his biggest black-eyes? EIGHT FIRST-ROUND exits (in 15 seasons...or over HALF of the time.)

Meanwhile, Chamberlain, playing with WORSE rosters in the first half of his career, still came within an eye-lash of beating the greatest dynasty in professional sports, TWICE. First, he took the same basic last place roster he joined, to a 49-31 record in '62...to a two-point game seven loss against Russell's 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers. And he got that putrid roster to that loss, despite not having ONE single teammate shoot better than .397 (and aside from Chamberlain, they collectively shot .354 in that post-season.) Then, in '65 (the same season that ShaqAttack blames Wilt for a 11-33 record with the god-awful Warriors) Wilt was traded to yet another bottom-feeder, and all he did was take that 40-40 team to a 3-1 romp over the 48-32 Royals, and then a game seven, ONE point loss against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, and their 6-2 edge in HOFers. Here again, ShaqAttack "forgot" to mention THAT fact.

And, while ShaqAttack points out Wilt's '63 record (31-49)...all he did that season was LEAD the NBA in FIFTEEN of the 22 statistical categories (most by large margins, and some NBA records at the time), while his teammates collectively shot .412. How bad was that roster? Wilt's new coach in '64 had that roster, sans Wilt, play a scrimmage against draftees and even non-draftees. Hannum was shocked when the draftees beat his veteran roster. THEN, all Wilt did was take that SAME roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals, where Russell's 8-2 edge in HOFers beat Wilt's Warriors, 4-1 (wuth two last second wins)...even though Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, per game, 27-25.

That was the worse. Wilt played 14 seasons, and went to the Conference Finals, TWELVE times. He played on SIX division winners. He played on SIX Conference winners. He went to SIX Finals. He played on FOUR 60+ win teams. He played on FOUR teams with the best record in the league (and in one, he LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%.) And he not only played on TWO title teams, they were among the greatest team's in NBA history, going 68-13 and 69-13. Of course, when Wilt LEFT the team's that he played for, they either didn't make the playoffs, or were BLOWN OUT in the first round (one didn't make it, and the other two were beaten in the first round, 4-1, and 3-0.)

BTW, ShaqAttack will attempt to point out that Wilt played on some "loaded" rosters in his career. Yes, in Wilt's last seven seasons, he played on some talented teams. BUT, in his ENTIRE career, his TEAM's were OUTGUNNED by HOF-laden teams in all but one post-season ('61.) And some were by HUGE margins. In his first TEN seasons, Wilt had to face the greatest dynasty in professional team sports history, Russell's Celtics, which had between FIVE to as many as NINE HOFers on those rosters (Wilt's BEST rosters had as many as three, counting Wilt himself.) Then, he faced the NY Knicks in FOUR post-seasons, with their FOUR to SIX HOFers every season. And he also faced Oscar and Kareem's Bucks TWICE (one without BOTH Baylor and West), beating his team's once (and getting much further in the playoffs in the other two season they played in the league together BTW.) So, even when Wilt had quality surrounding talent, his team's were still OUTGUNNED.

How about statistical titles? Hakeem won TWO rebounding titles, and THREE shot-block titles, in 18 seasons. I could go on for hours with all of Wilt's statistical titles. All anyone needs to know is that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%...in the SAME season, THREE times.

Of course, how about this Hakeem fact? Once again, Hakeem played in the NBA for EIGHTEEN seasons. He won ONE MVP (and that came in a year in which MJ took the season off.) He came in SECOND ONE time. And he finished in the top-4, TWO other times. Think about that. Hakeem was only considered a top-4 player, in HIS era, in FOUR of his EIGHTEEN seasons. And as horrific as that was, he only was in the top-10 NINE times. So, Hakeem wasn't even considered a top-10 player, DURING HIS era, in HALF of his career. And yet ShaqAttack has him at #4 ALL-TIME.

[Fatal9]